The Book of Mon-El

[Karat]

Yea, now that the complexity is down. I have no real opinion either direction.

[IAmBatman]

If you went with the power only working against normal, adjacent attacks (so both concepts combined) you could probably justify going back up to 7 defense.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

If you went with the power only working against normal, adjacent attacks (so both concepts combined) you could probably justify going back up to 7 defense.

This!

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

This!

Yes! It keeps it more in-line with Kryptonian Defense but differentiates it, golden.

[MrNobody]

This isn’t a concept I’m totally in love with but if it’s what everybody wants, I’ll roll with it. I’ll throw up an updated version later tonight.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

This isn’t a concept I’m totally in love with but if it’s what everybody wants, I’ll roll with it. I’ll throw up an updated version later tonight.

I'm actually with you here. But I understand the concerns as he shouldn't end up more powerful than Superman.

Really, as I expressed early on, his lead weakness is a story device that rarely comes into the stories. He takes an antidote every day otherwise he would die because of the lead already in his system. Another fact is that the antidote also protects him against the radiation of a red sun, so his lead weakness is actually a strength in this circumstance as under a red sun he is actually stronger than Superman. Therefore I don't think we need to keep discussing lead as a weakness & should stop trying to include it in any powers, even if it's only a metaphorical nod.

So those that think his defense power should be weaker because of this weakness please re-think your opinion. However if you're suggesting the ham-stringing of the defense power due to your belief that he is too powerful compared to Superman than that's a different matter. Maybe we can do something with the valor power to bring him more in-line rather than bring down the defense power?

[IAmBatman]

OK then I’d go basically Kryptonian Defense with an additional Daxamite vulnerability and consider going back to 6/6 stats.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by A3n

I'm actually with you here. But I understand the concerns as he shouldn't end up more powerful than Superman.

Really, as I expressed early on, his lead weakness is a story device that rarely comes into the stories. He takes an antidote every day otherwise he would die because of the lead already in his system. Another fact is that the antidote also protects him against the radiation of a red sun, so his lead weakness is actually a strength in this circumstance as under a red sun he is actually stronger than Superman. Therefore I don't think we need to keep discussing lead as a weakness & should stop trying to include it in any powers, even if it's only a metaphorical nod.

So those that think his defense power should be weaker because of this weakness please re-think your opinion. However if you're suggesting the ham-stringing of the defense power due to your belief that he is too powerful compared to Superman than that's a different matter. Maybe we can do something with the valor power to bring him more in-line rather than bring down the defense power?

My main issue, as I think I stated before, is that you're opening him up to a lot of things that canonically he's not weak to. I'd take a wild guess and say that over 50% of ranged attacks in C3G aren't lead-based bullets, so it feels slightly off to me to have him be weak to them.

I'd also like to keep him feeling as much like Superman as possible, because otherwise I feel like I've lost the theme. So that's why I was originally leaning towards Daxamite Defense being just like the Kryptonian version but with a weakness to Daxamites added. So that's where I'm coming from, I'm probably going to be resistant to anything that makes him feel less like Superman.

However, I do agree that he might need to be reigned in a bit. 380 is kind of what I'm shooting for right now (he has to be worse than actual Superman), and he's already a near-Supes level beatstick with a ranged SA and a leadership power that's equal to Cap's. Something's got to budge. I'd like to keep Heat Vision if possible, but I guess it can go if absolutely needed. But I don't really think it's the big problem here.

Powering down Inspirational Valor sounds pretty viable. Suggestions/ideas have been tying it to the X OM to keep him from combo-ing quite as well with Cosmic Boy or requiring him to be engaged in order to give out the boost. I'm not too set on anything really, I just would like to keep whatever it is fairly simple.

I personally think the lead weakness comes up in more stories than you give it credit for, but it's also certainly not something that comes up in every issue or every battle. IMO, the best way to capture it would be to give it a small "cameo" line that isn't going to affect most battles, like how Drax has one line referencing Thanos in his power. Idk if that's possible without being clunky but I think after all this discussion it's what would make me happiest.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I personally think the lead weakness comes up in more stories than you give it credit for, but it's also certainly not something that comes up in every issue or every battle. IMO, the best way to capture it would be to give it a small "cameo" line that isn't going to affect most battles, like how Drax has one line referencing Thanos in his power. Idk if that's possible without being clunky but I think after all this discussion it's what would make me happiest.

I think its important to recognize the weakness precedent in C3G. Actually including a weakness on the card feels pretty rare across C3G. I can think of very few across the board, and when it is done it is done in very specific and clear ways. Lead is real real common. Its not called out on cards so there's no real way to do it that doesn't feel clunky.

The most thematic way to do it would be some Dr. Manhattan-esque ability where he starts taking wounds at round X due to the antidote wearing off. And that just feels weird.

As for the Inspiration, could we go a different route with the boost? Maybe let him give Legionnaires rerolls or something? Then it doesn't quite stack with Cap or Star-Lord quite as much.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

I think its important to recognize the weakness precedent in C3G. Actually including a weakness on the card feels pretty rare across C3G. I can think of very few across the board, and when it is done it is done in very specific and clear ways. Lead is real real common. Its not called out on cards so there's no real way to do it that doesn't feel clunky.

The most thematic way to do it would be some Dr. Manhattan-esque ability where he starts taking wounds at round X due to the antidote wearing off. And that just feels weird.

As for the Inspiration, could we go a different route with the boost? Maybe let him give Legionnaires rerolls or something? Then it doesn't quite stack with Cap or Star-Lord quite as much.

Idk, I’d say there are a lot of weaknesses included on cards, especially if those weaknesses are iconic. Spider-Man, Martian Manhunter, Alan Scott, Tigra, Sandman, everyone with Electrically Charged, and I’m sure many more that I can’t think of off the top of my head. Sure there are a few that ignore it (Green Lanterns aren’t weak against yellow, for example) but the argument that C3G usually ignores weaknesses doesn’t really hold water to me.

I do agree, however, that lead is very hard to quantify. That’s why I added that I don’t even know if a “cameo” line is even possible, at least without being very clunky. Maybe it could be cut for now, then if I ever get around to the Metal Men, I could throw something on Lead, but who knows. I don’t want something that’s going to be awkward; at that point I’d just rather go for ignoring the weakness completely.

Luckily, Star-Lord isn't going to be a problem here. Cap could still be a problem though. Re-rolling is something I'll keep in mind, but we may have to nerf it even more than that.

[LordVenoc]

The Fire Weakness and Electrically charged were the main instances I could think of. I suppose you're right that things like the Symbiote callout on Spider-Man also count. Guess I just had a very limited definition in my mind (and limited memory, as I totally forgot about Alan). It happens when easy to do, but it is not the rule by a long-shot. But you're totally right that it does happen a fairly decent amount.

I think a callout on Lead the Metal Man could be fun and very fitting. I think the Antidote wearing off idea would be the most thematically appropriate because (as A3N pointed out) it is typically pre-existing lead, rather than new lead in his system that causes the problems. But again, it seems hard to incorporate elegantly like, say the Symbiote call out on Spider Man.

[Ronin]

I feel like it would make more sense to shout out Daxamites on Lead, rather than Lead on Daxamites.