The Book of Mon-El

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

I'd roll Daxamite Defense and Lead Antidote into one power. If you riff off of Kryptonian Defense it will feel familiar and still work to make it new. I think the Valor power if made more similar to the Vikings would also feel familiar and then you would be able to get your 3 powers. IMO, no way this card gets 4 powers.
For that combo, maybe something like this:

This way most guns (Range 5 or more, or Special Attacks) would still get through his defense.

I like that take, Spidey.

[A3n]

Mon El is basically Superman's level so there isn't issue if he turns out more powerful than Superboy. My concern would be if they are priced similarly would one make the other redundant.

Love the idea of Inspirational Valor. I think (as you have noted) that it may be overpowered. However I think Spidey's idea to make it only affect 1 figure doesn't feel inspirational enough. Maybe when a Legionnaire has an OM on it's card he feels inspired. This would give an opponent something to think about whether to go at the figures that aren't going to be activated that round.

I like Daxamite Defense idea. Not sure if it needs the range limitation.

As for the Lead Antidote, I don't feel it's necessary. Also I don't understand how you are tying the mechanics to the theme? Lead Antidote is something he has to take every 24 hours. It's time based not damaged based. Apart from that, it's a story device that is rarely used, even less so than Kryptonite in Superman's stories and we didn't put the Kryptonite weakness on Superman's cards.

As the others have noted the plan for the Legionnaires was to keep them streamlined & clear of purpose. In the comics the Legion has a large roster of heroes & those selected for a mission are done so based on the skill set required for the mission. The Legion is like a toolbox. And each hero is a specific tool for a specific job. I have a few more of their numbers already written up & all only have 2 powers each with the exception of Ultra Boy (but IamBatman has even suggested a way for him to be only 2 powers). So while it's not a hard & fast rule I believe it is achievable for the greater majority of Legionnaires. As Mon El is on par (or greater) than Superboy, 3 powers may not be unreasonable if they are all relevant.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think Superboy is probably the more appropriate template for him here than most of the Legionnaires. I wouldn't mind seeing the Inspirational Valor power, Daxamite Defense, and Heat Vision back, personally.

[LordVenoc]

I would probably echo the feeling regarding Lead Antidote being unnecessary. Both it and Kryptonite are more plot device than legitimate part of character and characterization. And with lead, there is literally no way to simply, elegantly, and appropriately incorporate it that doesn't create weird thematic flaws. With the wounding version, it could create situations where someone like Superman or Mongul could literally punch him into dying of lead poisoning, which is silly. Even if you incorporate it into Daxamite defense, you run into weird situations thematically as well, where a close range gun doesn't hurt him like lead could (without the antidote) but a long range arrow will.

Aside from that, I think I'd almost rather see Mon-El's Valor power based on when he's alive rather than dead. Thematically he was essentially a replacement for Superboy in the Legion and originally first appeared in modern setting learning from and working with Superboy, so I think that inspiration should be something present for him as a living Legionnaire. As far as I know, he's really only ever "died" twice, once for not taking the anti-lead antidote in a timely fashion, and the other was him actually being killed, but he was revived fairly shortly afterward by the offending villain. So I'd stray on the side of living Valor vs dead Valor.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by A3n

Mon El is basically Superman's level so there isn't issue if he turns out more powerful than Superboy. My concern would be if they are priced similarly would one make the other redundant.

Love the idea of Inspirational Valor. I think (as you have noted) that it may be overpowered. However I think Spidey's idea to make it only affect 1 figure doesn't feel inspirational enough. Maybe when a Legionnaire has an OM on it's card he feels inspired. This would give an opponent something to think about whether to go at the figures that aren't going to be activated that round.

I like Daxamite Defense idea. Not sure if it needs the range limitation.

As for the Lead Antidote, I don't feel it's necessary. Also I don't understand how you are tying the mechanics to the theme? Lead Antidote is something he has to take every 24 hours. It's time based not damaged based. Apart from that, it's a story device that is rarely used, even less so than Kryptonite in Superman's stories and we didn't put the Kryptonite weakness on Superman's cards.

As the others have noted the plan for the Legionnaires was to keep them streamlined & clear of purpose. In the comics the Legion has a large roster of heroes & those selected for a mission are done so based on the skill set required for the mission. The Legion is like a toolbox. And each hero is a specific tool for a specific job. I have a few more of their numbers already written up & all only have 2 powers each with the exception of Ultra Boy (but IamBatman has even suggested a way for him to be only 2 powers). So while it's not a hard & fast rule I believe it is achievable for the greater majority of Legionnaires. As Mon El is on par (or greater) than Superboy, 3 powers may not be unreasonable if they are all relevant.

Thanks for popping in, everybody was saying you're the guy I needed to hear from the most.

If he's really closer to adult Supes I guess there's no problem bringing his stats up. My memory on that is a bit blurry (tbh it is with a lot of Legion stuff), but honestly that sounds about right. If we don't want him to steal the spotlight from Superboy maybe he can go up a bit in points. 380 seems like the maximum to me.

Yeah it would be nice to have the Inspirational Valor affect more than one figure. I like your suggestion.

For Lead Antidote, I was trying to capture the feel of stories where Mon-El is out doing something for 23 hours and he's about to run out of antidote. He has a vial of it on him, but if he gets hit hard enough it shatters, and he's in trouble. I agree that it's not really how it works in the comics, like I said in my initial thoughts. I suppose we could just go without a lead weakness power. Maybe include some small clause in Daxamite Defense just for flavor text?

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

I would probably echo the feeling regarding Lead Antidote being unnecessary. Both it and Kryptonite are more plot device than legitimate part of character and characterization. And with lead, there is literally no way to simply, elegantly, and appropriately incorporate it that doesn't create weird thematic flaws. With the wounding version, it could create situations where someone like Superman or Mongul could literally punch him into dying of lead poisoning, which is silly. Even if you incorporate it into Daxamite defense, you run into weird situations thematically as well, where a close range gun doesn't hurt him like lead could (without the antidote) but a long range arrow will.

Aside from that, I think I'd almost rather see Mon-El's Valor power based on when he's alive rather than dead. Thematically he was essentially a replacement for Superboy in the Legion and originally first appeared in modern setting learning from and working with Superboy, so I think that inspiration should be something present for him as a living Legionnaire. As far as I know, he's really only ever "died" twice, once for not taking the anti-lead antidote in a timely fashion, and the other was him actually being killed, but he was revived fairly shortly afterward by the offending villain. So I'd stray on the side of living Valor vs dead Valor.

I agree with the idea that representing it through range is a bit wonky. Probably over half the ranged attacks in the game aren't lead bullets, so it feels weird that he can get shot down by them. I would disagree that the lead weakness isn't a major part of Mon-El's life; it's the reason he got stuck in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years, and the Legion making him an antidote is one of the reasons he joined them. But I agree with the idea that it's not 100% needed on the card, especially if the implementation is wonky.

I think you and I are kind of thinking in the same direction with Inspirational Valor honestly.

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So with all that in mind, what about a take like this?

NAME = MON-EL
SECRET IDENTITY = LAR GAND

SPECIES = DAXAMITE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = LEGIONNAIRE
PERSONALITY = VALIANT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 7
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 6
POINTS = ???

HEAT VISION SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4. Attack 2 + Special.
Choose a figure to attack and roll 2 attack dice, or 3 attack dice if the chosen figure is an Android or Destructible Object. For each skull rolled, roll one additional attack die. Continue rolling an additional attack die for each additional skull rolled until no skulls are rolled. The defending figure rolls defense normally.

INSPIRATIONAL VALOR
While there is a revealed Order Marker on this card, any Legionnaire figure you control with an Order Marker on its card adds 1 extra die to its normal attack and 1 extra die to its defense when that figure is within clear sight of Mon-El.

DAXAMITE DEFENSE
When rolling defense against a normal attack from a figure that is not a Kryptonian or Daxamite, if at least one shield is rolled, all blanks rolled count as extra shields. When Mon-El rolls defense dice against Lead, he rolls 3 fewer defense dice.

FLYING

SUPER STRENGTH

So his Valor becomes something more like Cap's power, where he's leading the charge and inspiring the others that way. Daxamite Defense has a small bit of flavor text referencing Lead from the Metal Men, but I could easily drop that if needed. And his stats got swapped a little to bring him back up to the power level A3n feels like he belongs at.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I really like the Range work around, but I'm biased. Inspirational Valor is looking good now, but to differentiate him from Cap Steve, what if it was ,"While there is an Order Marker on this card, ..." Gives him more utility and differentiates from Cap. He's naturally gonna be someone you frontline, with his stats.
Speaking of his stats, he shouldn't inspire himself, so I'd consider Attack and Defense at 7, maybe just Defense. It would serve to make him similiar to Supes but different.

[IAmBatman]

I like the defense and attack down at 6 like it's there if you want to keep him under 400. You don't want him to be a beat stick completely on Superman's level with a leadership power as good or better than Cap's (the current version is about as good as Cap's and Spidey's suggestion would make it even better than Cap's and make it stack really well with Cap's).

[MrNobody]

If we did a range workaround, I’d probably like to see it work against SAs too as a trade-off. Maybe A3n can confirm/deny, but I’m pretty sure Mon-El isn’t weak against magic like Supes is. So maybe it doesn’t work on range at all, but works against all adjacent attacks, special or normal? Still think I’m leaning towards my version, but I have a bias too.

Working with Cap would obviously be a problem, but luckily the Legion is more resistant than most factions to Cap because of their OM needs. Still, I can see how OM1 on Cap, OM2 on Mon-El, OM3 on any Legionnaire, then X on Cos could be really OP.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I would disagree that the lead weakness isn't a major part of Mon-El's life; it's the reason he got stuck in the Phantom Zone for 1,000 years, and the Legion making him an antidote is one of the reasons he joined them. But I agree with the idea that it's not 100% needed on the card, especially if the implementation is wonky.

Given at least half the point of his original inception was to replace Superboy on the Legion, I would dispute that this is thus a "major plot-device mechanic of his backstory" rather than a "significant piece of his day-to-day characterization. But we are on the same important page regardless of these semantics.

Pretty sure Daxamites are also vulnerable to magic like Kryptonians.

Might it be interesting to have Mon-El's Valor maybe tied to revealing an X marker? Maybe something like:

Inspirational Valor
After revealing an Order marker on a Legionnaire you control, if Mon-El is engaged, you may reveal an X Order marker on this card. While there is a revealed Order Marker on this card, any Legionnaire figure you control with an Order Marker on its card adds 1 extra die to its normal attack and 1 extra die to its defense when that figure is within clear sight of Mon-El.

That would make it a bit harder to set up and prevent Cosmic Boy just hogging the X marker, but still combo well with Cosmic Boy in effective builds.

[Karat]

I was gonna suggest doing the Valor like the boost from Cap

[MrNobody]

It’s ultimately semantics and doesn’t really matter, but Mon-El was created in the 60s and didn’t really replace Superboy until the early 90s. DC actually jumped through a lot of hoops to make sure Superboy stayed a part of the Legion’s story even after Crisis where Superboy was written out of Clark’s history. But yeah, I think the lead poisoning thing is something that plays out over long arcs vs every single battle he’s in, so I think we both agree it doesn’t need as huge of a place on the card.

Looking back, I think you may be right about magic. I re-read the original Mordru story when I was trying to design him, and both Clark and Lar are pretty scared of him. Mon-El was also out of action/“dead” during the Magic Wars so I just can’t recall many examples of him fighting magicians. I thought I remembered him taking down Mordru, but on looking it up I think I was just getting it confused with when he fought the Time Trapper.

The X Marker could be a good way to do it. My worry would be putting the X on Mon-El and the 3 on Cos, but I still think that’s more balanced than my take. Obviously it would have to be if there was a revealed X not any revealed OM cause that would just be a straight-up better version.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

If we did a range workaround, I’d probably like to see it work against SAs too as a trade-off. Maybe A3n can confirm/deny, but I’m pretty sure Mon-El isn’t weak against magic like Supes is. So maybe it doesn’t work on range at all, but works against all adjacent attacks, special or normal? Still think I’m leaning towards my version, but I have a bias too.

Working with Cap would obviously be a problem, but luckily the Legion is more resistant than most factions to Cap because of their OM needs. Still, I can see how OM1 on Cap, OM2 on Mon-El, OM3 on any Legionnaire, then X on Cos could be really OP.

I'm not so much worried about the OM1/OM2 combo currently, especially with the 6/6 stats. I was more worried about Spidey's idea to make the boost when there's any OM on Mon-El, because then you can go OM1 on Cap and "X" on Mon-El and get +2/+2 on the Legionnaires on OM2 and OM3.