Remixed Master Sets

[caps]

This thread was inspired by @GameBear 's excellent thread on Expanding the design space for competitive maps.

I'll repost the main point here:

Originally Posted by GameBear

Map sets
Tournament maps generally use 2 or 3 terrain sets. There are only so many viable combinations, and most have been attempted many times over. A map set combines a larger number of terrain sets to produce multiple maps. This opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities, as each map in the set gains access to a much wider range of terrain. The downside: one dud map ruins the whole set. Making one good map is hard enough; trying to make a set of them is a big step up in degree of difficulty. The sweet spot (balancing flexibility and difficulty): combine 6 or 7 different terrain sets - 3 master sets, plus 3 or 4 terrain expansions - to produce 3 maps.

Some of the concerns raised in that thread are re-posted here for context (emphasis mine):

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

As an event organizer, I would love to see this implemented. I've seen plenty of maps that use partial sets but it always feels so bad to use a map that's only using half of one or more of its given terrain sets, so I think some groups of maps that all share terrain would be great! The holdup, as you note, is that each map needs to carry its own weight, because I wouldn't want to lock myself into using a map that doesn't meet my standards even if the other one or two do. But I would love for map-makers to try this out!

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Personally, one downside I see to the "three maps from a pool of terrain" idea is that typically tournaments strive to have some variety in mapmakers represented in the total tournament pool. Putting three maps by a single person all or nothing in the pool could lead to that person being a large percentage of maps at the event. Also, if the quality of even one map in the set of 3 is low, the whole pool may not be usable at tournaments. Not trying to shoot it down, it's a very creative idea, but I feel like it has some challenges.

Originally Posted by OEAO

Logistically, I don't think it's a problem for ScapeCon. It's fine to have three maps built out of the same sets. Just bring the requisite bags to the table and build probably two at the same time, then the third. We can always move maps around later with poster boards.

If all three in a set are great, I'd certainly consider using them! I think this is a great, if ambitious, idea, and I'm always excited to see continued progress in the map community. I also wouldn't mind seeing more of the (slightly less ambitious) two-map pairs- I'm not sure there's a single great pair out there yet, although I could be mistaken. Of course, even properly executing that is quite difficult.

Edit: One other consideration in building the pool beyond balance is looking to have a diverse pool. We want some maps that are easy to play on, and others that are a bit more challenging. Of course, it can be tough to draw the line on when a map is too challenging to play on- it’s something I’m certainly not the best judge of, because I love challenging maps. But essentially, if all three maps in a set are very similar, there’s less of a chance I’d use them.

The TL;DR was that if one map-maker is making all the maps in a set and all three of them have to go together then

• the maps might all be too easy or too hard to play on (instead of offering a range of experiences)
• one or more of the maps may not hold up to competitive play as well as the others, making the whole set of three less useful for tournament organizers
• tournament organizers often try to have maps from a range of map authors, but picking one of these 3-map sets would mean that at least three of the maps at the event are from the same designer

As a solution to these various problems I propose that we, as a community, define new "master sets" that are remixes of existing terrain combinations. These new remixed master sets would come in families of 2-4, where the family is composed of anywhere from 4-9 different terrain sets divided amongst the remixed master sets. A tournament organizer could then decide to select a particular family (or multiple families) of remixed master sets for their event and then select a map from any number of map designers for each remixed master set.

For example, one family might be Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost, two remixed master sets that use (divided between them) 1xRotV, 1xSotM, and 1xFotA.

Durgeth Fortress would have these tiles

1    hive
1    gate
4    wall corner
2    wall end
3    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
10    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
3    grass 3-hex
3    grass 7-hex
1    rock 2hex
1    rock 3-hex
1    sand 2-hex
1    sand 3-hex
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
10    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
15    water tiles

while Crumland Outpost would have these tiles

1    ruin 3-hex
1    ruin 2-hex
6    wall corner
2    wall end
4    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
7    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
2    grass 3-hex
2    grass 7-hex
7    rock 1-hex
2    rock 24-hex
3    rock 2hex
3    rock 3-hex
4    rock 7-hex
5    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
3    sand 3-hex
7    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
11    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
14    water tiles

A map author could, of course, add additional terrain sets to a map. For instance, in addition to 1xDF they might have 1xVW. A map author could even double up a remixed master set, like 2xDF, or mix and match them, like 2xDF + 1xCO.

I will collect an index of such sets in the second post of this thread. I invite commentary, discussion, critique of the sets designed so far, and for people to come up with their own sets and submit them.

Of course, for these sets to have real value there will need to be a broad range of maps available (or at least several choices) for each Remixed Master Set. It is my hope and intention that myself (and others) will run map contests over the next few years to generate such a pool of maps (along with whatever maps that people choose to create purely from inspiration by this thread).

And for this to be easy to do, there should be custom VirtualScape "collection" files for each remixed master set, so that a map author can just load in the collection file and easily see what is available in the app. I plan to provide those files for each of the families that I create.

[caps]

Index of Remixed Master Set Families
Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost
- 1xRotV + 1xSotM + 1xFotA

Feldspar Dungeon and Ruins of Ghostlight Fen
- 1xBftU + 1xSotM + 1xFotA + 1xTT

[caps]

Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost
1xRotV
1xSotM
1xFotA

Durgeth Fortress - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

1    hive
1    gate
4    wall corner
2    wall end
3    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
8    grass 1-hex
2    grass 2-hex
4    grass 24-hex
2    grass 3-hex
1    grass 7-hex
1    rock 2hex
1    rock 3-hex
1    sand 2-hex
1    sand 3-hex
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
10    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
15    water tiles

Crumland Outpost - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

1    ruin 3-hex
1    ruin 2-hex
6    wall corner
2    wall end
4    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
9    grass 1-hex
4    grass 2-hex
2    grass 24-hex
3    grass 3-hex
4    grass 7-hex
7    rock 1-hex
2    rock 24-hex
3    rock 2hex
3    rock 3-hex
4    rock 7-hex
5    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
3    sand 3-hex
7    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
11    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
14    water tiles

[caps]

Feldspar Dungeon and Ruins of Ghostlight Fen
1xBftU
1xSotM
1xFotA
1xTT

Feldspar Dungeon - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

2    dungeon 1-hex
2    dungeon 2-hex
2    dungeon 24-hex
2    dungeon 3-hex
3    dungeon 7-hex
2    grass 1-hex
2    grass 2-hex
1    grass 3-hex
2    rock 1-hex
2    rock 2-hex
2    rock 3-hex
3    rock 7-hex
2    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
2    sand 3-hex
8    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
9    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
10    water tiles
30    battlement
14    ladder
10    wall corner
4    wall end
7    wall straight
1    gate

Ruins of Ghostlight Fen - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

21    ice
1    rock 3-hex
1    rock 7-hex
8    shadow tiles
12    snow 1-hex
12    snow 2-hex
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
12    wall-walk 1-hex
10    water tiles
20    battlement
8    ladder
3    glacier 1-hex
3    outcrop 1-hex
1    glacier 3-hex
1    outcrop 3-hex
1    glacier 4-hex
1    glacier 6-hex
1    hive

[caps]

Originally Posted by caps

Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost
1xRotV
1xSotM
1xFotA

Durgeth Fortress

1    hive
1    gate
4    wall corner
2    wall end
3    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
10    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
3    grass 3-hex
3    grass 7-hex
1    rock 2hex
1    rock 3-hex
1    sand 2-hex
1    sand 3-hex
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
10    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
 15    water tiles

Crumland Outpost

1    ruin 3-hex
1    ruin 2-hex
6    wall corner
2    wall end
4    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
7    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
2    grass 3-hex
2    grass 7-hex
7    rock 1-hex
2    rock 24-hex
3    rock 2hex
3    rock 3-hex
4    rock 7-hex
5    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
3    sand 3-hex
7    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
11    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
14    water tiles

Originally Posted by caps

Feldspar Dungeon and Ruins of Ghostlight Fen
1xBftU
1xSotM
1xFotA
1xTT

Feldspar Dungeon

2    dungeon 1-hex
2    dungeon 2-hex
2    dungeon 24-hex
2    dungeon 3-hex
3    dungeon 7-hex
2    grass 1-hex
2    grass 2-hex
1    grass 3-hex
2    rock 1-hex
2    rock 2hex
2    rock 3-hex
3    rock 7-hex
2    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
2    sand 3-hex
8    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
13    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
10    water tiles
30    battlement
14    ladder
10    wall corner
4    wall end
7    wall straight
1    gate

Ruins of Ghostlight Fen

1    rock 3-hex
1    rock 7-hex
8    shadow tiles
12    snow 1-hex
12    snow 2-hex
21    ice
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
8    wall-walk 1-hex
10    water tiles
20    battlement
8    ladder
3    glacier 1-hex
3    outcrop 1-hex
1    glacier 3-hex
1    outcrop 3-hex
1    glacier 4-hex
1    glacier 6-hex
1    hive

I wanted to clarify that I view these 4 sets as drafts. I think we'll need map makers to try making maps with them and get a little feedback on how they feel before "finalizing" them and launching a map contest.

For instance, Ruins of Ghostlight Fen only has 8 wall-walk tiles, is that enough to do something interesting with or do we need to move more over from Feldspar Dungeon? Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost both have 5 24-hexers. Is that a good map-making challenge that will bring us some new and interesting map outlines? Or is it just obnoxious and one of them should swap a few 7 hexers over in order to get a 6th 24-hexer? Ruins of Ghostlight Fen has dramatically more level 0 tiles (shadow, ice, swamp water, water) than Feldspar Dungeon, but I counted those hexes when balancing out the hex count. Does that make RoGF maps too small? Or does it just encourage flatter maps (that are hopefully still interesting!) in the style of Embattled Fen, Kermode Swamp, etc.?

These are examples of a few of the questions to answer before locking in these sets. This is also why I am starting small with the first sets. I have ambitious goals for much larger families that use 6-9 master sets and terrain expansions, but I want to have a better idea of good ways to break up the terrain before launching into those.

[caps]

After thinking about it more my instinct is that 4 24-hexers and 6 24-hexers is probably a better allocation than 5 and 5, for a variety of reasons, one of which would be better differentiation in possible footprints between the two remixed master sets

[Grison]

I'm intrigued by this overall idea and project!

While I've historically been more of a map consumer than a creator, one thought did jump out at me when you mentioned "goals for much larger families that use 6-9 master sets and terrain expansions." I can imagine how this approach would allow for more interesting and varied "remix sets", but I wonder whether having a large number of these new sets would dilute their overall utility.

As you indicate in your explanation of the concept, one key to success will be gaining sufficient adoption such that each of the new remix sets actually gets used by multiple designers. If there are a dozen new sets across several new families, will all of the sets see sufficient use to create a viable map pool for their respective families?

A related consideration -- which I'm sure you are already pondering -- is that each remixed set of terrain needs to not only be useful (containing a sufficient quantity and variety of terrain to make viable and interesting maps), but also distinct - having a sufficiently unique mix of elements (as compared to the other remix sets) that map designers will be inspired to use it. The more remix sets that exist, the more difficult it might be for each of them to have a distinct identity. It's definitely an interesting challenge!

All that being said, I'm not trying to discourage any particular approach, and you clearly have a lot more knowledge in this area than I do. I trust your instincts, but I figured it also couldn't hurt to share my thoughts in case they are helpful.

~ Grison

[Grison]

And as a Princess Bride fan, there definitely needs to be a fire swamp set in the mix somewhere.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Grison

I'm intrigued by this overall idea and project!

While I've historically been more of a map consumer than a creator, one thought did jump out at me when you mentioned "goals for much larger families that use 6-9 master sets and terrain expansions." I can imagine how this approach would allow for more interesting and varied "remix sets", but I wonder whether having a large number of these new sets would dilute their overall utility.

As you indicate in your explanation of the concept, one key to success will be gaining sufficient adoption such that each of the new remix sets actually gets used by multiple designers. If there are a dozen new sets across several new families, will all of the sets see sufficient use to create a viable map pool for their respective families?

A related consideration -- which I'm sure you are already pondering -- is that each remixed set of terrain needs to not only be useful (containing a sufficient quantity and variety of terrain to make viable and interesting maps), but also distinct - having a sufficiently unique mix of elements (as compared to the other remix sets) that map designers will be inspired to use it. The more remix sets that exist, the more difficult it might be for each of them to have a distinct identity. It's definitely an interesting challenge!

All that being said, I'm not trying to discourage any particular approach, and you clearly have a lot more knowledge in this area than I do. I trust your instincts, but I figured it also couldn't hurt to share my thoughts in case they are helpful.

~ Grison

I agree that having too many "families" would be an issue. I think you're right about the sets needing to have an identity as well. I've tried to give these sets so far a clear identity, and I have ideas for a few more.

I think the community can probably afford to have new "families" introduced every year or two after the initial batch, but I think the initial batch can be as big as 3-5 families. It will depend on how many new maps are made for each family, and how quickly. If these sets are widely adopted then it should be easy to introduce new families more quickly, but if only a few map-makers buy in then it will take more time to build a large enough catalog of maps in a family to justify introducing a new family.

[caps]

Originally Posted by caps

Durgeth Fortress and Crumland Outpost
1xRotV
1xSotM
1xFotA

Durgeth Fortress - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

1    hive
1    gate
4    wall corner
2    wall end
3    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
10    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
3    grass 3-hex
3    grass 7-hex
1    rock 2hex
1    rock 3-hex
1    sand 2-hex
1    sand 3-hex
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
10    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
 15    water tiles

Crumland Outpost - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

1    ruin 3-hex
1    ruin 2-hex
6    wall corner
2    wall end
4    wall straight
25    battlement
11    ladder
7    grass 1-hex
3    grass 2-hex
3    grass 24-hex
2    grass 3-hex
2    grass 7-hex
7    rock 1-hex
2    rock 24-hex
3    rock 2hex
3    rock 3-hex
4    rock 7-hex
5    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
3    sand 3-hex
7    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
11    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
14    water tiles

I just added .vsc files for this "family," so you can load either set as a "collection" in VirtualScape for ease of digital map-making. I will add the others later.

[Sir Heroscape]

Here's an example of my first shot at this! I'd say it turned out pretty well. I like the way it challenged my mapmaking skills and produced a fun and unique aesthetic I normally wouldn't get otherwise.

The First Age
Sets: Feldspar Dungeon X1

[caps]

Originally Posted by caps

Feldspar Dungeon and Ruins of Ghostlight Fen
1xBftU
1xSotM
1xFotA
1xTT

Feldspar Dungeon - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

2    dungeon 1-hex
2    dungeon 2-hex
2    dungeon 24-hex
2    dungeon 3-hex
3    dungeon 7-hex
2    grass 1-hex
2    grass 2-hex
1    grass 3-hex
2    rock 1-hex
2    rock 2hex
2    rock 3-hex
3    rock 7-hex
2    sand 1-hex
2    sand 2-hex
2    sand 3-hex
8    sand 7-hex
12    swamp water
13    wall-walk 1-hex
1    wall-walk 7-hex
1    wall-walk 9-hex
10    water tiles
30    battlement
14    ladder
10    wall corner
4    wall end
7    wall straight
1    gate

Ruins of Ghostlight Fen - download the .vsc (VirtualScape collection file) here

1    rock 3-hex
1    rock 7-hex
8    shadow tiles
12    snow 1-hex
12    snow 2-hex
21    ice
2    swamp 1-hex
2    swamp 2-hex
2    swamp 24-hex
2    swamp 3-hex
10    swamp 7-hex
22    swamp water
8    wall-walk 1-hex
10    water tiles
20    battlement
8    ladder
3    glacier 1-hex
3    outcrop 1-hex
1    glacier 3-hex
1    outcrop 3-hex
1    glacier 4-hex
1    glacier 6-hex
1    hive

I've added the .vsc files for Feldspar Dungeon and Ruins of Ghostlight Fen now as well!

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Here's an example of my first shot at this! I'd say it turned out pretty well. I like the way it challenged my mapmaking skills and produced a fun and unique aesthetic I normally wouldn't get otherwise.

The First Age
Sets: Feldspar Dungeon X1

This is an exciting start! Do you have any thoughts or suggestions on how to tweak the allocation to ensure the sets have unique enough "identities"? Or did you feel they're already there? I think the differentiation between these two sets seems a little better to me than the differentiation between the Durgeth Fortress and the Crumland Outpost.

I'm looking forward to having a chance to play around with these myself this weekend.