The Pre-SoV Workshop

[caps]

Originally Posted by Ixe

"Bonding creep" is an interesting problem. Bonding is essentially an obvious and powerful tool that can be tempting to apply and patch over perceived holes for different units that can potentially lead to overuse. Sometimes, however, it is just the cleanest and most efficient way to answer the problem at hand where you can cripple yourself trying to work around it.

I personally feel that there is reasonable thematic justification for Knights to be able to bond, although I must admit that this has been muddied by the fact that many obvious thematic knights are instead classed as champions.

I don't see a problem that needs to be answered.

[Kinseth]

When he says problem at hand, I believe he refers to the designing process and trying to be too "Cutesy" with wording a fancy bonding-like power.

[Dad_Scaper]

In other words, if you are "trying to work around" the absence of bonding, maybe that in itself is the "problem at hand."


edit: Kinseth ninja! That may be, but Cap's point stands.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

When he says problem at hand, I believe he refers to the designing process and trying to be too "Cutesy" with wording a fancy bonding-like power.

I assumed the problem at hand, in this case, was "Knight and Paladin heroes are too weak and need 'help.'" I don't agree that is a "problem" that needs to be "answered" or solved.

[Dad_Scaper]

Ah. I read it to mean the "problem" faced by the designer who wishes to use such a power, notwithstanding the preference to avoid doing so. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, in a way.

[Kinseth]

I don't think there are any "Problems" at all in heroscape. I think of Heroscape as a fun evolving world that the generals bring in new units/heroes to help them battle on Valhalla. We saw this with expansions all the time, units like Fen Hydra or Greenscale Warriors were introduced. I don't think anyone said to themselves that the dragons a broken and need a bonding squad. We have seen many C3V releases that add new flare and new units to the game, new bonding options.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Ixe

"Bonding creep" is an interesting problem. Bonding is essentially an obvious and powerful tool that can be tempting to apply and patch over perceived holes for different units that can potentially lead to overuse. Sometimes, however, it is just the cleanest and most efficient way to answer the problem at hand where you can cripple yourself trying to work around it.

The "problem" I was referring to was the "perceived holes" that I had mentioned earlier. Forgive my writing for being a little ambiguous in this case.

Whether or not the "hole" exists can be subject for debate. You don't see an issue with lone heroes like Sir Dupuis, Rhogar Dragonspine, and your very own Prince Al'Kahora while others maintain that these units are not only not competitive but should be made more viable. When trying to design around this specific goal of making the heroes in question more competitive, a bonding squad can be the simplest and most elegant solution.

[dok]

I guess it's more or less an open secret that a decent number of people in the C3V/SoV are very reluctant to lasso more offical Hasbro non-bonding heroes into bonding webs. So far, we've added bonding to all the Utgar Soulborgs (ZIs), X17 (Hops), All the ninjas (Kantono), Jotun and Guilty and Valguard (Dreadguls), Sudema, Gurei-Oni, and the DCF (Crypt Guardian), and Laglor (G-Troopers). It's quite a list when you run it all together.

Personally, I like most of these but there's one or two that I would undo if it were just me. And other people would get rid of more of them, or none at all. And there have been discussions of other new bonding with old figures (both in SoV nominations and C3V designs) that has been met with resistance. Everyone's notion of how much is too much is a little different.

To me, the most egregiously bizarre bonding web that's ever been put together was the D3 Death Knights of Valkrill, whose bonding selection would probably have been rejected as obviously silly if anyone had suggested it for a SoV custom.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Ixe

The "problem" I was referring to was the "perceived holes" that I had mentioned earlier. Forgive my writing for being a little ambiguous in this case.

Whether or not the "hole" exists can be subject for debate. You don't see an issue with lone heroes like Sir Dupuis, Rhogar Dragonspine, and your very own Prince Al'Kahora while others maintain that these units are not only not competitive but should be made more viable. When trying to design around this specific goal of making the heroes in question more competitive, a bonding squad can be the simplest and most elegant solution.

In other words, you meant what I thought you meant and I still disagree.

[Dad_Scaper]

Oh, lord, Ixe. You are wrong. The absence of synergy is a feature, not a bug.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by dok

To me, the most egregiously bizarre bonding web that's ever been put together was the D3 Death Knights of Valkrill, whose bonding selection would probably have been rejected as obviously silly if anyone had suggested it for a SoV custom.

I think just plain Relentless Bonding on a more fitting squad could make sense, but the Death Knights' version is just weird.

Between the size restriction, the name (what's 'Unholy' about the Venoc Warlord?), the lack of any thematic options for them to bond with, and the whole thing not being all that Death Knighty, that whole card is a black mark on the game IMOO (granted I've never been a fan of DnD Scape in general).

Anyway, on topic, I have no problem with Knight bonding personally. I don't really see a strong need for it either though. I'm pretty neutral to the whole thing.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Oh, lord, Ixe. You are wrong. The absence of synergy is a feature, not a bug.

I think my attempts to clarify things is further getting misconstrued. I was trying to describe how and why bonding is used and, if the premise of the initial problem is accepted, why using it can be okay.

Before I launch into a whole essay on game design and the desired amount of synergy, suffice to say that I do not believe that we should work to introduce synergy in every corner of this game and it is in fact desired to have a certain portion of completely stand-alone units.