The Book of Apocalypse

[IAmBatman]

Mostly ....

[weebaer]

Can Apocalypse start with the glyph of Smilex, and if he was able to, is it just dropped onto the space he occupies since he cannot actually pick it up correct?

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by weebaer

Can Apocalypse start with the glyph of Smilex, and if he was able to, is it just dropped onto the space he occupies since he cannot actually pick it up correct?

Ugh, that's a messy interaction. Smilex should probably be a Permanent Glyph that Insane figures can treat as an EG. Technically, by my reading, the glyph would be placed on Apocalypse's card, but he wouldn't be able to equip it. I think the intention is that he would not be able to choose the glyph because he can't equip it, but I don't know if the wording follows that.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Ugh, that's a messy interaction. Smilex should probably be a Permanent Glyph that Insane figures can treat as an EG. Technically, by my reading, the glyph would be placed on Apocalypse's card, but he wouldn't be able to equip it. I think the intention is that he would not be able to choose the glyph because he can't equip it, but I don't know if the wording follows that.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with you TB. This is really messy and something that I honestly think got forgotten when Apoc got designed.

[A3n]

He can only equip equipment glyphs that he is able to do so. Because the Smilex glyph says only insane figures can equip it and he isn't insane, therefore he can't equip it.

[Hellfire]

Originally Posted by A3n

He can only equip equipment glyphs that he is able to do so. Because the Smilex glyph says only insane figures can equip it and he isn't insane, therefore he can't equip it.

I think that the confusion lies with the understanding of the first line of Apocalyptic Technology:

you may place up to two different Equipment Glyphs on this card.

The power description then goes on to explain Apocalypse's special rules for equipping and dropping glyphs.

So the question might be whether or not the act of "placing" glyphs on a figure's card is synonymous with "equipping" it.

That said, I interpret the action of "placing" glyphs on a card to mean that the figure is "equipping" the glyph but perhaps I err on the subject as I don't believe C3G Equipment Glyph Rules specifically define "equipping a glyph."

However, my understanding of the idea that "placing" = "equipping" comes from the rulebook:

If the figure is a Unique Hero they can choose to pick up the equipment Glyph by placing the Glyph on that Unique Hero’s Army Card.

I presumed that when a figure is picking up a glyph, they are equipping it by placing the glyph on the corresponding Army Card.

If needed, perhaps for clarification, a subheader ("Equipping Equipment Glyphs") could be added to the rules (for quick reference) and/or just changing the wording on Apocalypse's card to say "equip" instead of "place."

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by A3n

He can only equip equipment glyphs that he is able to do so. Because the Smilex glyph says only insane figures can equip it and he isn't insane, therefore he can't equip it.

[TrollBrute]

As Hellfire said, I think the confusion is coming from the word "place". I don't think that's ever been used as a synonym for "equip". This does support that reading though:

If the figure is a Unique Hero they can choose to pick up the equipment Glyph by placing the Glyph on that Unique Hero’s Army Card.

[Just_a_Bill]

If you guys are considering looking at equipment glyph terminology, I would love to be part of a separate conversation on that topic. As part of my rectangular card project, I've been going through a very in-depth analysis of all 92 glyphs in the game (Hasbro, WotC, C3G, C3V) for function and terminology, and there are some good opportunities for improvement.

This seems like an area of the game that has been heavily impacted by the breadth and volume of ongoing development since the idea was first conceived. Hasbro's original design didn't really foresee what would come later, the color scheme wasn't very consistent, the army cards were laid out in an illogical way, terminology varied across waves, all 4 glyphs in Wave D3 were mislabeled ... so of course the result is confusion and a lot of inconsistency between the three major types of glyphs, and even lack of clarity on what those fundamental types even are. Games like this always face a challenge keeping things under control as they evolve, and the glyph system seems to show the most wear and tear of any major subsystem.

And yeah, one of the things that has been giving me fits is what exactly "equipping" entails.

[dok]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Any Horseman figure you control has the Super Strength special power and adds 1 to its Attack number for the remainder of the game.

I interpret this to mean that the +1 attack is applied only to Horsemen you control at the start of the game (i.e. that you don't get +2 in an Apoc Mirror match) but that if a Horseman is temporarily controlled (by Puppet Master, say), it retains the +1 attack. Is that correct?

On a related note, as I read it, Bishop doesn't get the bonus since he is not on the Battlefield at the start of the game. Should it say "in your army" instead?

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by dok

I interpret this to mean that the +1 attack is applied only to Horsemen you control at the start of the game (i.e. that you don't get +2 in an Apoc Mirror match) but that if a Horseman is temporarily controlled (by Puppet Master, say), it retains the +1 attack. Is that correct?

On a related note, as I read it, Bishop doesn't get the bonus since he is not on the Battlefield at the start of the game. Should it say "in your army" instead?

Well if you choose Bishop to be one of your horsemen and put a horseman marker on him, then wouldn't it just work once he does come into play on the battlefield?


Edit: Nevermind, I forgot "you control" is different than "in your army"


Edit again: But don't you still control Bishop from the onset? He just doesn't get placed until rolling for initiative. So it's not like he's not going to get out there and you can do whatever with him.

[dok]

You do not control Bishop at the outset, unless C3G has ruled differently from standard Heroscape. Control means units in your army on the battlefield.

One easy way to phrase it would be to base the bonus on your marker. That solves the mirror match issue.

Originally Posted by possible approach

Any figure with your Horsemen Marker on its Army Card has the Super Strength special power and adds 1 to the Attack number for the remainder of the game.

I guess this screws Archangel if you don't mark him, though.

Really, it's reasonably clear as-is, although I'd prefer "in your army" just for Bishop's sake.