The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I think Olog is a mid-cost design forced to be 10 points. As a 10-point 1-defense figure he has little value outside of cheap cleanup. But as cleanup, both Orc Battle Rush and Savage Ambush play against that role. Orc Battle Rush pushes him closer to the initial battle lines, where he's likely to get picked off by a random attack. Savage Ambush requires you to have another figure still in play, in which case you're usually going to want to take a turn with that figure instead.

At a higher Life total and higher cost he would perform as a solid addition to a Durgeth Ravager army. They lack a good mid-cheap option (~50pts), and Olog would fit their playstyle very well.

I actually disagree, looking at the card. Orc Battle Rush pushes him to the front lines, but, with careful positioning, not necessarily into the field of fire. He's a a 10-point figure, sure, but that doesn't make him cleanup, necessarily. He looks like an ambush predator to me - keep him safe but near the front, then use him to leap out at someone already in combat for a big attack. The Battle Rush, here, simply allows him to be closer to the front so that you don't have to waste activations on him to get him into position to ambush. Pseudo-bonding with the Durgeth Ravagers helps that. He won't survive much longer than that one big ambush attack, and maybe not that long, but he's 10 points - he's meant to be expendable. Of course, it'll need testing to see if the scenario I've described in theory actually works out in practice, but theoretically, I actually like that card a lot.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I actually disagree, looking at the card. Orc Battle Rush pushes him to the front lines, but, with careful positioning, not necessarily into the field of fire.

True, especially on larger maps it can serve as a little boost to get into the fight. But my experience with such things (and I have a lot with some of my own customs) has largely been that it just places the unit in danger. A unit that sits all game near enough to be attacked will get attacked.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

He's a a 10-point figure, sure, but that doesn't make him cleanup, necessarily. He looks like an ambush predator to me - keep him safe but near the front, then use him to leap out at someone already in combat for a big attack.

In throwing him out there for fun, sure, he can do that. But anyone trying to play seriously won't use him that way. When is the last time you saw Isamu rush out to take out a Jandar figure? Or a Sahaugin Raider see play (at all)? A one-time solid attack is ok, but even if Orc Battle Rush is enough to get him in position, having to time the order marker is too difficult, and it risks him getting killed before the order marker is used, especially at such low defense.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Pseudo-bonding with the Durgeth Ravagers helps that. He won't survive much longer than that one big ambush attack, and maybe not that long, but he's 10 points - he's meant to be expendable.

In that we agree. He could be a neat addition to a Ravager army as-is, at that may be enough to pass, as the pseudo-bonding covers the concerns I mentioned above. But why limit him to one specific build? I just don't see him valuable outside of that as a 10-pointer. With a little Life he could work well as a filler unit, and actually worth putting order markers on to use him as an ambush predator outside of Ravager builds. His abilities are well-suited for the role, but without a little staying power he's not worth it outside of Ravagers.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

So just make it Common figures? Or is it important that she be able to shift with specifically Unique Squads as well? If so, what's the reasoning behind your desire there?

Personally, I wouldn't be excited to do that since, if I remember correctly, it hasn't been done on any Heroscape card before (I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't). It would also require extra words for just a little extra benefit -- going off of previous unclear examples like Deathcommander and Dreadguls, everything would have to be spelled out, so "a small or medium common figure, or a small or medium squad figure," which I don't love. But if the reasoning is strong enough I could probably be convinced. And I'm not sure how my fellow judges feel -- they could be more or less opposed than myself.

I guess common could work. Really I just want it to work with all the existing Drow. (except the two unique heros, because unique heros) I wanted to keep unique squads, because one of the really fun armies I playtested with Samurai. It wasn't the most powerful army, but it was a fun army. You could run an Assassin into engagement, and shift with an Izumi to put them into a better position for a potential counter strike. Charging in with the Kozuke's 5 attack, and then activating Assassinate was a really fun strategy too. You mainly did this with Assassinate, since the order markers were better used getting samurai attacks off, but the shifting was fun to use with them. Even with the restrictions Assassinate had, the Kozuke allowed for some fun setups against heros. Removing all the fluff from Assassinate makes the Kozuke even more appealing, but restricting unique squads kills it. I don't want to, but if it's really something that rubs the judges the wrong way, I would be willing to simply say common figures. I wish were just as easy as saying "a figure that is not a unique hero".

Originally Posted by Scytale

If you change it so that the figures do take leaving engagement attacks, it wouldn't be a "get out of jail free," and you wouldn't have to worry about limiting it.

You could still pop Raelin away from danger before she gets engaged, and if you position the Assassin properly before the shift, you don't need to take a turn with her to reposition either. The assassins are pretty easy to kill with only 2 defense, and specials ignore HiD. Would loosing 25 points be enough to balance the versatility of moving Raelin away for free, without even using order markers, through Assassinate activations? I wonder if this is why the Chainfighter could only grab opponents figures.

---- ----

My 2-cents for the 10 point filler:
He's interesting, but would be more interesting as a 20 - 30 point filler with 3 lives, and maybe 2 defense instead of 1. Savage Ambush looks like Sneak Attack, but with a start unengaged restriction.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

You could still pop Raelin away from danger before she gets engaged, and if you position the Assassin properly before the shift, you don't need to take a turn with her to reposition either. The assassins are pretty easy to kill with only 2 defense, and specials ignore HiD. Would loosing 25 points be enough to balance the versatility of moving Raelin away for free, without even using order markers, through Assassinate activations? I wonder if this is why the Chainfighter could only grab opponents figures.

Hard to say. I'm not worried about the free reposition to safety. If someone sets that up and pulls it off, more power to them. It may allow for moving Raelin up the field essentially for free, though. I would have to try it out to see how well that worked.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

True, especially on larger maps it can serve as a little boost to get into the fight. But my experience with such things (and I have a lot with some of my own customs) has largely been that it just places the unit in danger. A unit that sits all game near enough to be attacked will get attacked.

Not if you:
1) Use the terrain to your advantage to keep him safe;
2) Cover him with your other units by making your opponent have to claw through them;
3) Make your other troops appear as more of an immediate threat.

I think it's worth testing, anyway.

Originally Posted by Scytale

In throwing him out there for fun, sure, he can do that. But anyone trying to play seriously won't use him that way. When is the last time you saw Isamu rush out to take out a Jandar figure? Or a Sahaugin Raider see play (at all)? A one-time solid attack is ok, but even if Orc Battle Rush is enough to get him in position, having to time the order marker is too difficult, and it risks him getting killed before the order marker is used, especially at such low defense.

Isamu and the Sahaugin Raider both need activations to reach the front lines - it's the Order Marker cost that holds them back, and that is where Orc Battle Rush comes in. If this guy can just leap out from slightly behind your lines to bash a bonding hero such as Gilbert upside the head, then yes - I actually believe that's likely to be worth an Order Marker, especially if your front line's fraying. He probably won't get more than one a game, but he doesn't need to.

Originally Posted by Scytale

In that we agree. He could be a neat addition to a Ravager army as-is, at that may be enough to pass, as the pseudo-bonding covers the concerns I mentioned above. But why limit him to one specific build? I just don't see him valuable outside of that as a 10-pointer. With a little Life he could work well as a filler unit, and actually worth putting order markers on to use him as an ambush predator outside of Ravager builds. His abilities are well-suited for the role, but without a little staying power he's not worth it outside of Ravagers.

He wouldn't be the first unit that's build specific, and as I just intimated, I doubt he's actually as build specific as you presently claim - I'd already take him over Otonashi if I had 10 points left. Bumping his life a little and putting him at 20/30 might work, though... any more than that, and I actually think he becomes less interesting. I think he arguably becomes less interesting as an ambush predator the tougher and more expensive he becomes.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Not if you:
1) Use the terrain to your advantage to keep him safe;
2) Cover him with your other units by making your opponent have to claw through them;
3) Make your other troops appear as more of an immediate threat.

Agreed, but would you really do that for a 10-point unit? A more consistent threat, sure.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

He wouldn't be the first unit that's build specific, and as I just intimated, I doubt he's actually as build specific as you presently claim - I'd already take him over Otonashi if I had 10 points left. Bumping his life a little and putting him at 20/30 might work, though... any more than that, and I actually think he becomes less interesting. I think he arguably becomes less interesting as an ambush predator the tougher and more expensive he becomes.

Yeah, I might take him over Otonashi too, but low bar and all.

I also agree he becomes less interesting once he gets tougher and more expensive. I can see 20/30, but I think a little higher would be the sweet spot. I would have to test to be sure. He needs to be beefy enough that a quick one-off shot won't take him down, but not beefy enough to stick around long once he jumps into the fray. That would be a cheap unit worth sweating over when facing.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Agreed, but would you really do that for a 10-point unit? A more consistent threat, sure.

Yes, because it doesn't require active action, just a degree of thought in placement. Don't battle rush him into the middle of the battlefield, run him behing a tree. Don't rush him the full 5 spaces if it's a large map. Keep him behind your main force. Keep pressure on the enemy force so that he doesn't seem important. None of these require extra effort, necessarily (the last one you should be doing anyway), just a degree of thought. That's the sort of strategy I want to see in a filler hero.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I guess common could work. Really I just want it to work with all the existing Drow. (except the two unique heros, because unique heros) I wanted to keep unique squads, because one of the really fun armies I playtested with Samurai. It wasn't the most powerful army, but it was a fun army. You could run an Assassin into engagement, and shift with an Izumi to put them into a better position for a potential counter strike. Charging in with the Kozuke's 5 attack, and then activating Assassinate was a really fun strategy too. You mainly did this with Assassinate, since the order markers were better used getting samurai attacks off, but the shifting was fun to use with them. Even with the restrictions Assassinate had, the Kozuke allowed for some fun setups against heros. Removing all the fluff from Assassinate makes the Kozuke even more appealing, but restricting unique squads kills it. I don't want to, but if it's really something that rubs the judges the wrong way, I would be willing to simply say common figures. I wish were just as easy as saying "a figure that is not a unique hero".

That wording may work. Definitely something that would be good to hear from other judges on as well. I'd have to think about it a bit but could warm up to it.

Really, we just need to change the norm to "a figure that is not Merciful." Or just "a figure that is not Raelin."

You could still pop Raelin away from danger before she gets engaged, and if you position the Assassin properly before the shift, you don't need to take a turn with her to reposition either. The assassins are pretty easy to kill with only 2 defense, and specials ignore HiD. Would loosing 25 points be enough to balance the versatility of moving Raelin away for free, without even using order markers, through Assassinate activations? I wonder if this is why the Chainfighter could only grab opponents figures.

Yeah, even if it meant disengagement strikes I'd use the Assassin to get Raelin away from enemy units and engage them with a different unit on the same turn all day. Doubly so since I can move to a position and then switch to control where she would go. I do think that's why the Chainfighter is limited to opponents. I believe the Shadow Tentacle was changed to only opponents for a similar reason, and I think I remember reading that Boreos was also changed to be non-fliers for Raelin reasons too.

Also, I'm not sure where the X OM/what triggers the power and when discussion ended up, but someone to consider is that Xundar, if he gets passed through the SoV in his current form, provides a potentially messy bonding interaction.

[Scytale]

Hmm. How about can only switch with non-engaged figures?

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

That wording may work. Definitely something that would be good to hear from other judges on as well. I'd have to think about it a bit but could warm up to it.

Really, we just need to change the norm to "a figure that is not Merciful." Or just "a figure that is not Raelin."

I'd be okay with ""a figure that does not have the Flying, or Stealth Flying ability" if that was acceptable, though why specifically fliers wouldn't work thematically, I don't have an answer.

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Also, I'm not sure where the X OM/what triggers the power and when discussion ended up, but someone to consider is that Xundar, if he gets passed through the SoV in his current form, provides a potentially messy bonding interaction.

Hmm... looking at the Durgeth.

SAVAGE CRY
After revealing an Order Marker on the Durgeth Ravagers' Army Card and taking a turn with the Durgeth Ravagers, if the Durgeth Ravagers destroyed at least one opponent's figure this turn, you may immediately take a turn with one Savage Hero you control.

Does the use of "immediately" mean that nothing could happen in between? If "immediately" was added to the wording of Shadow Master, would that mean that using Assassinate would prevent Shadow Master from being used?

The actual solution is just to limit Assassinate to Common Drow. But this is something I hadn't thought of.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Hmm. How about can only switch with non-engaged figures?

Switching with engaged figures is a very integral aspect of Shadow Shift, and the class of Assassin to me. Especially with Assassinate, a huge part of the usefulness of Assassinate, is to switch a figure out so that you can try to finish off the target.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Does the use of "immediately" mean that nothing could happen in between? If "immediately" was added to the wording of Shadow Master, would that mean that using Assassinate would prevent Shadow Master from being used?

Well, "immediately" powers happen before non-"immediately" ones.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

The actual solution is just to limit Assassinate to Common Drow. But this is something I hadn't thought of.

That's pretty clean. Any small/medium Drow would be fine too, probably.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Well, "immediately" powers happen before non-"immediately" ones.

Alright, so that's a simple solution that doesn't change the functionality of the power at all... but it's not on my design, so I'm not in a position to make that change.

Originally Posted by Scytale

That's pretty clean. Any small/medium Drow would be fine too, probably.

Xundar is medium, and there's only medium Drow, so that really doesn't specify anything. Common looks to be the way to go.