Boot Camp of Valhalla: Kobolds of Idona Keep (Reworking)

[johnny139]

I think that Aquilla is a workable alternative for sure. It'd be weird since she doesn't have any Warriors to bond with, but thematically she's close enough to not strip away their characteristics.

But anyways: what we have that's workable is more or less as follows. I think we can all agree that the Devotion power is cool and the base stats are fine. The primary issue is what synergy we want to go with. Stick with Warrior? Limit to Kyrie? Go with general "Big Dudes?" Unique Heroes from one General? Or something different entirely?

I think shifting to "Unique Aquilla Hero" would give some playablility to a lot of units that need it, but would also bring Quahon into the fold as their obvious best unit and that would be absolutely boring.

[KOBOLDS]

GENERAL: [???]
SPECIES: Kobold
UNIQUENESS: Common Squad
CLASS: [???]
PERSONALITY: Loyal
SIZE/HEIGHT: Small 2

LIFE: 1 (3 figures)
MOVE: 6
RANGE: 1
ATTACK: 2
DEFENSE: 2
POINTS: 45

[X] DEVOTION
At the start of the game, choose a [Unique Hero] you control to be the [Kobolds]' Master. While their chosen Master is in play, when taking a turn with the [Kobolds], you may move and attack with 1 additional [Kobold] for each Wound Marker on their Master's Army Card. You can choose only one Master for all the [Kobolds] you control. [Kobolds] cannot attack their Master.

SCALE
When moving up or down levels of terrain, [Kobolds] may add 2 to their height.

[TheAverageFan]

I was thinking maybe some sort of Personality Bonding like the Death Chasers... maybe bonding with Large Ferocious Units (to avoid Nilfheim/Hydra bonding (oh God, Hydra bonding...)), but then there's the Wyvern... meh...

Maybe Brute Bonding with the Frost Giant? He himself already goes nuts when he dies. With all this Uncommon talk, that ditches Avenging a Unique Hero though...

~TAF, trying to think outside the box.

[Dysole]

If my conversations with some of the C3V/SoV people are any indication the simpler the devotion would be the better. Unique Aquilla Hero is certainly not a bad start but I agree Quahon certainly doesn't need more bonding. I guess my question is thematically who do we see these guys working with and then go from there.

~Dysole, looking at it from another angle

[flameslayer93]

Dobby is free! Dobby has no master!

~~flameslayer, who will gladly go further into detail regarding Warlord/Kobold synergies after eating

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by Dysole

If my conversations with some of the C3V/SoV people are any indication the simpler the devotion would be the better. Unique Aquilla Hero is certainly not a bad start but I agree Quahon certainly doesn't need more bonding. I guess my question is thematically who do we see these guys working with and then go from there.

~Dysole, looking at it from another angle

I think that's a good way to go about things.

- Jandar or Aquilla, POSSIBLY Ullar
- Any Ruling-Class Species: Dragon, Eladrin, Elf, Kyrie
- Any "Noble" Class: Champion, Knight, Paladin, Warlord, Warrior, Wizard[?]
- Any "Good" Personality: Disciplined, Merciful, Resolute, Valiant

Of course, we should avoid anything that hedges too closely to D&D stuff. Like Eladrin. We'd want a clear separation between these Kobolds and possible future D&D Kobolds. There's a few I'd like to avoid just because they're oversynergized or otherwise dull (Dragon, Champion, Warlord, Valiant), but this is all-inclusive.

Anything obvious I'm missing?

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Care to elaborate on pointless? Why would they be pointless?

The Warlords all have bonding options already, and if I wanted to play a Warlord based army, I'd cater to the Warlord's synergies, for example, Mittens grants Scout bonuses and Frenzy bonuses. I'd put him in an army with Scouts and/or Frenzy units. The ones who don't grant synergies like Ne-Gok-Sa or Mogrimm are pretty decent, but the opponent will probably avoid them like the plague to get at the weak willed Kobolds/Goblinoids. That certainly won't create tension, and that will force my Warlord to find some other way to get beaten up. At least the Azurite Warlord can hurt himself, though. The other two units who use a "Master" have masters who are actually going to get their hands dirty and get filled with bullet-holes (presumably).

Now other unit types, even a generic medium/large <General> Hero, is an option, but we'll have to consider if anyone would be useful with Kobolds.

[Viegon]

What about just switching them to Aquilla, opening their Devotion power to work with any Unique Hero, and dropping Avenge the Master for something like this:

INSPIRATION FROM THE MASTER
All [Kobolds] you control within 5 clear sight spaces of their chosen Master roll 1 additional attack die.

My .

[Kinseth]

I am okay with Kobolds being in Aquilla. It will probably pass the smell test.

I like the idea of moving and attacking with extra Kobolds based on the hero. I also like the restriction of being within a clear sight range, perhaps 8 is better. It is also a more common number used with others such as Sir Gilbert.

It also forces you to move the hero around also, instead of just sitting back. I think you need incentive to kill the hero though. They should always be better with the hero around.(Though it tied to wounds , I am not sure if that is the best way to do this.)

[wriggz]

I think ya'all are getting stuck on the Kobold thing.

I can tell you I hate Kobold's. I have previously mentioned how pesky they are for Low level players in D&D. It will be hard to cast them as anything more than annoying evil fodder for most people that are D&D players. Like it or not D&D lore is now a critial part of Classic scape, so if you are designing for classic it has to play nice with D&D.

That Said, why do they have to be Kobolds. In the pictures they look like More mammalian than reptilian. Also with the kilts(?) they look a bit like the Highlanders. I don't see why they can't be "Pigmen of Hills" or some such thing.

With that you save your Jandar theme, (I have argued Jandar needs some summons) and expand on the wild heroics of brave and tiny warriors charging off into battle to protect those they see as worthy (Warrior if you prefer, of course Valiant Kyrie or Valiant Warrior would work too). Of course there are those that say there is too much bonding anyway.

[Lyrgard]

First, I must say I'm a little disappointed that the kobolds didn't pass the inner sanctum review. I feel some people are a little too dogmatic regarding "theme" or "realism" but that's only my opinion, I won't expand further on that.

I see the word "bonding" used a lot, but the kobold doesn't bond with anyone.

I know it is of no use to argue, the decision is already taken, but I need to say my mind there :

On the Jandar as general :
Granted, it may seems a strange one, especially if you cannot envision kobolds differents than thoses despicted in D&D. That one is easy to fix : let us make them something other than kobold, like pigmen suggested before, or ratmen, or whatever we find cool. Then Jandar won't be a problem, right ?

On the attack of 4
well, McDirk warrior can get 7 attacks, DW9k has 9 defense, ... Also, without 4 attacks, the kobolds wouldn't have enough punch with only 3 melee activation per turn. Yes, it may not be perfectly realistic, but I think it is needed to make the kobolds work, gameplay wise.

On the Warrior devotion :
The base idea of the warrior synergy was to be a synergy with the kyrie. We could have used "Kyrie devotion" instead, but "Warrior devotion" opened more choices, some being quite interesting. Some were strange, granted, but this game is Heroscape, a game where Einar Roman Legion bonds with an Utgar Marro Warlord ! I'm not saying synergy should be all strange and crazy, I'm just saying that some strange borderline effects is OK, and, in my opinion, desirable. Some may ask why the kobold would have an affinity with warrior heroes ? For the exact same reason the deathchaser has an affinity with large wild heroes ! It matches a certain set of figures and it not inacceptable (like if the deatch chaser were bonding with "Loyal Small Hero" for instance). From what criteria is "warrior" too broad a synergy ?

On the Raelin synergy
The only real problem would be if the kobolds made Raelin better than she already is, right ? That would be broken, and it is clearly not the case here. Does raelin is the best Kobold master ? well, perhaps, I'm not absolutly convinced, but I can see the argument. but well, there is a damn LOT of figures where raelin is the best unit to draft with. I fail to see how this synergy is a problem. Maybe krav + raelin + kobold is a really good army. but eh, Raelin + Krav + any screen is a really good army anyway... the problem is not on the kobold side... Wouldn't krav + raelin + kobold be more fun to play against than krav + raelin + rats ?

On the fact that having a boost before and after the master death remove tension
Well, first, a lot of figure don't have conditionnal boosts and so don't have "tension" when you play them, right ? Play the HSB, do you feel any tension ? How can that be a malus for the kobolds ? Does a unit need to have tension to be good ? Well, the tension is more on the opponent side, with the kobolds. Will he kill the master quick enough to prevent the kobold to take good position ? Will he leave the master alone to keep the kobold at poor 2/2 with 3 activations per turn ?


For now, I don't want to restart the kobolds from scratch. I like them as they are. Why not a little change, like making them another specy than kobold, but for now I don't have the desire nor the courage to start them over. (but remember, it is just my opinion, if the community want to do it, be my guest !)

[Lazy Orang]

Could you at least keep the old card up? I may want to use them as is.

I have more to say, but no time now.

Originally Posted by Lyrgard

First, I must say I'm a little disappointed that the kobolds didn't pass the inner sanctum review. I feel some people are a little too dogmatic regarding "theme" or "realism" but that's only my opinion, I won't expand further on that.

I see the word "bonding" used a lot, but the kobold doesn't bond with anyone.

I know it is of no use to argue, the decision is already taken, but I need to say my mind there :

On the Jandar as general :
Granted, it may seems a strange one, especially if you cannot envision kobolds differents than thoses despicted in D&D. That one is easy to fix : let us make them something other than kobold, like pigmen suggested before, or ratmen, or whatever we find cool. Then Jandar won't be a problem, right ?

On the attack of 4
well, McDirk warrior can get 7 attacks, DW9k has 9 defense, ... Also, without 4 attacks, the kobolds wouldn't have enough punch with only 3 melee activation per turn. Yes, it may not be perfectly realistic, but I think it is needed to make the kobolds work, gameplay wise.

On the Warrior devotion :
The base idea of the warrior synergy was to be a synergy with the kyrie. We could have used "Kyrie devotion" instead, but "Warrior devotion" opened more choices, some being quite interesting. Some were strange, granted, but this game is Heroscape, a game where Einar Roman Legion bonds with an Utgar Marro Warlord ! I'm not saying synergy should be all strange and crazy, I'm just saying that some strange borderline effects is OK, and, in my opinion, desirable. Some may ask why the kobold would have an affinity with warrior heroes ? For the exact same reason the deathchaser has an affinity with large wild heroes ! It matches a certain set of figures and it not inacceptable (like if the deatch chaser were bonding with "Loyal Small Hero" for instance). From what criteria is "warrior" too broad a synergy ?

On the Raelin synergy
The only real problem would be if the kobolds made Raelin better than she already is, right ? That would be broken, and it is clearly not the case here. Does raelin is the best Kobold master ? well, perhaps, I'm not absolutly convinced, but I can see the argument. but well, there is a damn LOT of figures where raelin is the best unit to draft with. I fail to see how this synergy is a problem. Maybe krav + raelin + kobold is a really good army. but eh, Raelin + Krav + any screen is a really good army anyway... the problem is not on the kobold side... Wouldn't krav + raelin + kobold be more fun to play against than krav + raelin + rats ?

On the fact that having a boost before and after the master death remove tension
Well, first, a lot of figure don't have conditionnal boosts and so don't have "tension" when you play them, right ? Play the HSB, do you feel any tension ? How can that be a malus for the kobolds ? Does a unit need to have tension to be good ? Well, the tension is more on the opponent side, with the kobolds. Will he kill the master quick enough to prevent the kobold to take good position ? Will he leave the master alone to keep the kobold at poor 2/2 with 3 activations per turn ?


For now, I don't want to restart the kobolds from scratch. I like them as they are. Why not a little change, like making them another specy than kobold, but for now I don't have the desire nor the courage to start them over. (but remember, it is just my opinion, if the community want to do it, be my guest !)

Agreed

[Killometer]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Agreed

As a personal desire that's fine, but I doubt very much that if just the species is changed they'll get much traction in a resubmission to the SoV.