Public Design Workshop

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Yeah, seriously! Bring that life down to 5 and I think we might have a good starting point (though even then 4 defense plus Hard Body might be too much).

Umm, Bats, how recently have you played with She-Hulk?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Umm, Bats, how recently have you played with She-Hulk?

Recently enough to know that it's a really tough combination even on a single attack per Order Marker figure and that I don't believe Robocop should be as powerful as She-Hulk, much less significantly better?

Edit: Yipes! And even She-Hulk only has 6 life!

[johnny139]

Yeah, I don't really see Robocop above the mid-high 100s range. He's tougher than your average cop but not exactly at superheroic levels.

(Though frankly I'm not too keen on him either way unless there's an official figure.)

[IAmBatman]

While you're around, Viegon, I figured it's a good time to express some Mystique II concerns, since she's currently leading the pack. None of these were things to make me vote nay on allowing the design, but I am worried about them going into a potential LD for her.

1. If she ends up at or below 165 points, Mystique I is rendered pretty much worthless and undraftable going forward, and that'd be a major disappointment for me.

2. Shapeshift has a very similar name to a very different special power we have (Shapeshifting) while having very, very similar mechanics to a pre-exisiting power with a completely different name (Impersonate). In a game with 500+ unit designs, I really think it behooves us, when possible, to try to use similar names for similar mechanics, just as a "user-friendly" type of thing. This isn't a concept I've consistently pushed for in the past, but we also didn't always have 500+ units! I'd love to see a name closer to Impersonate here, or even just Impersonate if we're OK with her just taking the image of Medium-sized Heroes.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Recently enough to know that it's a really tough combination even on a single attack per Order Marker figure and that I don't believe Robocop should be as powerful as She-Hulk, much less significantly better?

Well, I do agree that She-Hulk is crazy tough, but that Robocop write-up isn't "significantly better", in my opinion. Sure, he has one more life, but She-Hulk's healing is a big reason for her crazy toughness, and in most games is the equivalent of a couple extra life, meaning she's still tougher. And that's not even getting into her Invisible Woman synergies.

Still, I would bring down Robocop's survivability, no reason to do She-Hulk again.

As to your Mystique II thoughts:

1) To tell the truth, I don't even remember putting her cost at 165, I thought I had her aimed for 205. If it turned out she would be that low, I'd want to make her stronger anyways because I was aiming for a more powerful interpretation of Mystique. That said, even though I won't let it happen, I don't think either Mystique can overshadow the other except in thematic builds. The original Mystique is best played as an Agent or an assassin unit, while Mystique II is almost always going to be used solely as a Outcast leader, giving them entirely different roles in the game.

2) I could see the power name being changed. I'd rather not go with straight-up Impersonate because the name isn't the perfect representation of her powers, plus she should be able to shift to Small and Large figures. For power name, maybe try to combine then into something like "Shapeshifting Impersonation"? Anybody else got ideas?

[Margloth]

I've got to admit, I don't much care for that RoboCop write up. To me, RoboCop should excel against low-level street trash (common figures) and have trouble with higher level heroes (I mean heck... Red Foreman was able to make a rough go of it for him), plus he's got the hidden fourth directive that affects his ability to kill just anybody.

RoboCop is also more about precision to me than big attacks... I'd also like it if he were more of a "second wave rescuer" figure than a "straight out of the gate war machine".

This is my thought:

ROBOCOP
Alex Murphy

Cyborg
Unique Hero
Lawman
Relentless

Life: 6

Move: 5
Range: 7
Attack: 4
Defense: 6

PRIME DIRECTIVES
When rolling for initiative, if RoboCop is in your and unengaged, you may add 1 to your roll for each friendly engaged figure on the battlefield. Each round that you win initiative, you may immediately move RoboCop 5 spaces if he was not engaged.

AUTO-9 PISTOL SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 2 + Special.
Add 1 automatic skull to this special attack if RoboCop attacks a Criminal or figure engaged with a friendly figure, or 2 automatic skulls if both. If RoboCop destroys a figure with this special attack, he may move up to 2 spaces and attack again with this special attack.

DIRECTIVE *CLASSIFIED*
RoboCop cannot target a Hero who is not a Criminal or engaged with a friendly figure for a non-adjacent attack unless you first reveal and remove an unrevealed Order Marker from this card.

SUPER STRENGTH

[Smithy Winfred]

I'm not really excited about the fact that he is so restricted to anti criminals. Maybe if he was forced to attack Criminals first, but removing an order marker just makes him useless against non-criminals (also, that group should be expanded to include crime-lords, thieves and assassins, that way it reflects all of the criminal element)

[Lazy Orang]

I, too, have some concerns about Mystique, though they are not the same ones that Bats voiced.

Mystique can only use Outcast Assault if she isn't Shapeshifted, which means that in that state she's vulnerable. In addition, she only has a melee attack of four (incidentally wondering why she doesn't have range like the other one, but I don't know her that well and there's probably a reason), her survivability is low, and she's actually more likely to fail Outcast Assault than to use it. I honestly can't see the attraction of putting an OM on her - if your roll for Outcast Ambush fails, then you're either moving up your weak commander unit without backup to get shot up or effectively skipping your turn. I've had the same issues with Mr. Fantastic in the past, which is why I hardly ever play the Adventurers, and they seem even more apparent here for less potential reward.

I do like the idea in general, but I'm wondering if maybe making a turn with one other Outcast automatic and maybe even making the turn with two a little more likely may make her more useful?

[IAmBatman]

I like the variable turn (and think you're underselling Mister Fantastic), but I agree that the roll could probably come down, especially if we're reaching for closer to 205.

For survivability's sake, CLOSE COMBAT EXPERT wouldn't be a terrible choice for a third power on that card, especially with a reduction to 3 attack and a range of 5.

SHAPESHIFTING IMPERSONATION is definitely a lot closer to the mark, V. I'm not sure it's the best possible, but "adjective IMPERSONATION" is definitely the right approach here, IMO.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, and I was saying Robocop was significantly better than She-Hulk not on the basis of survivability (I think his one extra Life versus her healing is close to a wash most of the time), but on the basis of his much better arsenal in that write up.

[Lazy Orang]

CCE and a range does sound cool, and it should make her more useful. I'm glad you agree about the roll coming down - you aren't much of a leader if your leadership's failing 55% of the time.

I may well be underselling Mr. Fantastic, its just that I've never had a good experience with him, and I have tried him a few times. I'm sure that if your rolls are on he can be devastating, but whenever I've tried him I've ended up rolling a 1-3 at least once (usually several times) and just taking a turn with him. What are you supposed to do in that situation? Move up your leader with a single attack of four unsupported to get shot up (and Reed on his own isn't really the best combatant), or just abandon your turn? I'd actually be really interested to hear how you think he should be played, as they do look potentially really fun and I would like to try them without being blown off the board. Am I just having terrible luck, or am I not playing him right? In my experience he has been terribly flaky.

I am a little concerned about Mystique also being flaky in this way and just not hitting the board for that reason, though I may be wrong.

[Yodaking]

I would like to have an Outcast 'leader' as I have played the Outcast faction a few times and they are missing a lynchpin unit to make them work better as a cohesive unit. Lots of good synergy but difficult to manage and execute in comparison to other teams. However, I've never been tempted to throw Mystique II a vote and I'll tell you why.

It is a two power card in which the two powers are working against each other. Since you can only use one power or the other for the whole turn, she really is a 1 power card. That makes for a pretty weak 'leader' figure. Also her leadership ability is not consistent enough to really build a team around.

If this is suppose to be a later version of her character, I'd drop the shapeshifting aspect all together. Her early career was as the shapeshifting spy who was afraid to appear in public as blue, that is well reflected in the Mystique we have. In her later days she held a leadership position and was confident/defiant enough to remain blue in public. Let this second version represent her leadership skills without trying to still make her the sneaky spy.