Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[superfrog]

Can confirm (well, it wasn't the most recent one in January, but we did use it in December at a 13-person event).

Thanks for the nomination!

[superfrog]

Got maps timing out every 2 weeks (okay, it's 15 days between Yngvild Pass and Odin Wept) for the next 8 weeks. All coming down to the wire!

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Can confirm (well, it wasn't the most recent one in January, but we did use it in December at a 13-person event).

Thanks for the nomination!

It was used in a CCL qualifier and the CCL finals event aswell!

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

It was used in a CCL qualifier and the CCL finals event aswell!

That was an older version, actually. Still quite similar but the edges have been reworked a bit since then.

[Flash_19]

Blackberry by @superfrog



BlackBerrys used to be all the rage back in the day. People like Dok and Ken probably even had one…

There's a lot to like about the updated Blackberry including the fantastic placement of the trees and ruins, the raised level 2 central roads (the parts furthest from the center) that improved past issues, the typical superfrog aesthetic, and the nice crisp start zones (even with the black triangles of asphalt). A couple comments I found describing the map have described it as solid and simple, with Foudzing stating he felt it was overly simple. While I do largely agree, I do think there is more depth to the map than is apparent at a first look, or even with some experience on the map. As some have noted the amount of road on the map is somewhat deceptive in the sense that it is often not helpful. There are circumstances where the road is quite helpful, but trying to lean too heavily into the road isn’t the most effective way to play the map.

Despite superfrog’s “almost hex shape” (which should be an automatic strike against the map), I feel confident enough in the map to give it a . It’s not super flashy (otherwise it would be a perfect hex), but I’ve enjoyed it so far and have failed to find a feature that can be easily abused. Personally, I tend to value balance more than a map providing a totally unique experience. While it might not be the most unique in terms of map features, I think it’s a solid use of marvel sets and road.

[superfrog]

Odin Wept by @Typhon2222



While we wait to see if Blackberry can sneak over the hump at the last minute, I’m going to distract myself by writing an Odin Wept review.

With only 20 visible hexes of lava field, and 0 molten lava hexes, Odin Wept is a bit of an outlier among lava maps. Compare Typhon’s other two WoS-inducted lava maps: Stygian Rift (34 and 6) and Dance of the Dryads (26 and 10). Also compare the WoS-inducted Wyrmwalk by Panopticon (30 and 4).

One thing Odin Wept has in common with all three of those maps is the combination with the dungeon set. And I think that’s pretty natural: shadow and some small LoS blockers like the outcrops both have helpful roles in and around lava field.

Typhon masterfully uses all that missing lava (including 2 of the 7-hexes) to prop up the dungeon 24-hexes and flesh out the edgess, making for a surprisingly expansive level 2 considering the terrain limitations. If not for the pesky single glacier on each side, there would be a couple continuous runs of level 2 directly from one SZ to the other. But don’t let the lack of continuous level 2 fool you: development from the SZ and then through the map is very good. The safe level 3 behind each side of the central glacier is a nice spot to stage units, but that spot can just as easily be overwhelmed by rolling through the level 4 high ground lava field.

In my experience, most games do consist of both armies fighting over those level 4 lava field spots (and the 3 level 3s immediately below). But there are plenty of ways to attack up into those lava spots, including the level 2 shadow that runs up to the single glacier. The level 3 lava islands offer options in some games but not in others, again mostly revolving around control of those level 2 shadow spaces.

Glyph access is nice and it is very good that the glyphs are pushed all the way to the edge on this map. SZs are clear and the level 2 that previously seems to have been a problem never appeared to be an issue in my games.

to induct.

[superfrog]

Blackberry does not pass, 1-1.

No Aloha is on the clock.

[1Mmirg]

Originally Posted by Sheep

Resubmitting Yngvild Pass.


Requires: 1 RotV and 1 TT
.PDF Download

Each pothole next to the glacier level 3 snow has been removed.
Added a level 1 ice space to each side of the glyph level 3 snow.

The new version was used at HexiCon and NE Ohio Basement Brawl (link to .org). It was also used online for CCL Qualifer #2

I have enjoyed all of my games on Yngvild Pass, which I can't always say. The map is long and pretty large and I worried about melee units from the outset. Fortunately, there is enough cover to help them stay alive. Also, the widespread height (without any true perches) allows melee to often work their way into engagement on even ground before taking too many hits. (They can even just pay an extra move to step up to high ground, since it is so available, and still be able to engage on the next turn). Ranged units can run and shoot a bit using the same strategy, but there is enough cover and the map just isn't big enough to run for long. I was pleasantly surprised to see melee do well.

I wasn't a fan of the glyphs being so close to the edges of the start zones. An easy flight over. If you can develop some screening units a bit, you can then drop a flying unit on to a glyph (or take a risk and send it early). It isn't a deal breaker, but I would rather see the water spaces in the start zones used in order to cut back on the number of spaces within flight range of the glyph--or the height just behind it. (If Zelrig was a unit seeing a lot of play, that would be really dangerous.)

Much less significant, but still annoying, was the placement of the walls near other terrain pieces, making it hard for dragons or large/huge figures to position near them. Fortunately, they are not usually spaces you want your dragons and minor issues for dragons and other large units isn't so bad. (Most of them kind of deserve some issues.)

I'm not going to say this is my favorite map (those usually have roads or jungle bushes, let's be honest), but I was impressed with how well it played and how much of the map mattered (especially is you played with glyphs that were balanced with each other). If one glyph is strong, the game tips to that side and isn't as good, but doesn't break.

The start zones and initial development bother me a bit (one with more cover, one closer to height, one with water in the way, each with a different ruin, etc.), but I didn't find them to be game breaking. Just not to my preference. And, to be clear, I do appreciate maps that are not just perfectly symmetrical and allow for some interesting choices and possibilities (without being truly unbalanced). I would though still love to see a version with the start zones moved back into the back water spaces.

Overall, this is a map that I feels does some valuable things without necessarily being a favorite. While I think it could still be tweaked to be better (or maybe just different), I also don't feel like the map has to be fixed necessarily. I was impressed with this map and surprised with how well it played despite things that I initially disliked, and I am now comfortable voting YES to induct.

[Foudzing]

Odin Wept by Typhon


Range vs melee machup? CHECK
The Shadow Lava combo is usually quite good for melee, great way to make melee life easier on a non-road map, and works very well here.
The best spots on the map (level 3 snow hexes) are not good to camp on as vision toward opponnent is completely hidden,, well if you get to thos on your opponnent's side, then they are very good to camp on on but then it's deserved!
There is just enough "speed bumps" along the way to make range take some free shots in and balance the machup in a great way imo!

Fly not OP? CHECK
Dragons are quite good due to their ability to go over the big glacier in the middle and the opponent's level 3 snow is a good spot for them , but it's still a high-risk high-reward play. The level 4 lava are also good spots but are 2 moves away for 6 flyer dragon and are on lava and surrounded by shadow. So very strong spots but not OP, but yeah if I had to one change to the map I would add a single level 5 solid lava here, just to show the middle to dragons. Then it would be quite strong for single spacers high life units esp Raelin, but I dunno I feel it would be sightly better this way (well I'm a Raelin enjoyer and a Quahon hater so I might be biased lol, yeah actually not sure this would be better lol, but still I like map that gives the incentive for Raelins to go forward on the map rather than staying in startzone).
And I just wrote a wall of text for not much lol. SO back to the point, overall I found fly to be balanced, helps you a lot going through the speedbumps and over the glacier but not insanely strong.

All the map seeing play? CHECK
Yes. Not much to say lol. Even without strong glyphs all the map sees play, it's a small map so it's not the most difficult point to check lol.

Incentive to go forward? CHECK
Big yes! The new version has destroyed the infamous camp startegy of scapecon 2022, you can still try to camp on the level 2 plateau just after the triangle outcrop but it's not super effective, you're quite close to your opponnent and don't have great vision and opponnent can use the level 3 snow on your side to its advantage.

Micro positionning choices? CHECK
There is plenty small positionning choices to rack your brain on, as usual with the lava shadow combo, but even more on this map.

Macro positionning chioces? CHECK
The startzone being a big split by the triangle outcrop, makes you take big choices before the game even, starts you have plenty of strategies at your disposal weither you're playing range or melee, love it.

Original? CHECK
Can't really think of a silimiar map with the combo big glacier in the middle + shadow lava.

ALL this with 1 BFTU.
My only downside with the map is that I'm not a fan of the lava+TT combo aestetically speaking but it's still the most beautiful map with that combo.
Easy include, a map TOs can (and should!) include in their map pool blindly, might even top Stygian Rift.

YES to include!

[dok]

Yngvild Pass by Sheep

The Tundra set is the worst terrain expansion because the only unique thing it can do is slow figures down, which is not something you really want on a competitive map. Aside from that it’s just LoS blockers, and not particularly versatile ones. This is probably why the single master set + Tundra combo has had a rough go of it in the WoS.

Yngvild Pass attempts to crack this nut by spreading the battle out. Instead of giving you a best spot of high ground to fight over, this map gives you eight different level 3 islands to work with, and uses the glaciers and ruins to give screened approaches to each. With every path around the map being at least two spaces wide, it proves to be a difficult map to clog up and a map that gives many different options for advancing.

The starzones are unique, but seem to work well. Generally, shallow startzones are more common-friendly, but the way these are divided by water tends to make it hard to deploy in one direction with a full army.

The current version of Yngvild Pass is an improvement in two ways over the version that was judged before. First, two level 1 pits in the center of the map were removed, which did make working around those high areas annoying. The remaining level 1 pits are (I assume) intentional, to prevent any spaces in the map center from being fully surrounded by same-level terrain.

The more important, if structurally simpler change, was that two ice tiles were added to each side to make it easier to outflank around the edges. This is particularly important on the small ruin side, as that side used to have the map’s only single space choke point. On a map with no other exploitable choke points, I saw that one choke point become a significant issue in several games I saw, especially when the glyph proved important.

The size of the map can lead to some very cat and mouse endgames. But given the terrain sets involved, I don’t personally see a way around that. The glyph choke-point issue may have been a deal breaker for me on the old version, but with the issue cleanly resolved I don’t see any obvious ways this concept can be improved, and I think it’s probably the best map with this terrain combo. YES to induct.

[superfrog]

Congrats to @Sheep and Yngvild Pass, the 21st WoS map!

[RainyDays]

Congratulations @Sheep on the induction and the clean sweep!