Map Reviews Thread!
Hey everyone! Welcome to our Map Reviews Thread. The purpose of this thread will be to:
1. Publicly post our official reviews on the playtested Top 10 Maps of each Contest - starting with our most recent Uncharted Wellsprings contest.
and
2. Inform mapmakers which maps have and have not been officially accepted by the ARV for tournament worthiness. This will allow map builders to see what improvements and adjustments may need to be made to their maps in order to make them more competitive/balanced, if they decide to resubmit their map(s) in the Workshop Thread.
These reviews will only be posted after we've completed the playtesting, deliberation and voting that goes on in our private ARV Thread, as sometimes our decisions change over time as we playtest and discuss the maps. These reviews are the final reviews of each map as they were submitted at the time during the contest and after we've playtested them. Keep in mind, some of these maps only have 2 reviews on them even though there are 5 judges. This is because any map that receives 2 or more downvotes is removed from the process.
This map was deemed tournament worthy. Reviews and a download link may be found here.
Cannonade by @andrethegiant
Sir Heroscape - The center gets pretty congested/busy with both ruins. I think freeing up the center by removing both - or just one - and then playing around with the height a little would do a lot for this map.
Similar sentiments to HS2010 regarding the road. I think it's fine if they're primarily on the outside, but maybe find a way to work the road 2-3 toward the center as well? That way if you decide to develop the side, at least you have the option to move inward a little and contest more than just the outside edge (which doesn't have much to contest. In that same vein, I don't like how easy it is to lock up the edge. 1 figure can halt all movement through that avenue...so if you try to blitz the SZ...it's easily halted. Additionally, a glyph holder can stop all movement along the edges due to engagements. The 3-tile castle wall on the left side of the SZ should also be moved down to 2 I think in order to avoid the 1-hex chokepoint that can lock up all movement for that entire area.
Overall, I really like the look of the map. It's a fun aesthetic and I think uses the sets well. I think a little more playing around with small tweaks will help "free up" this maps potential!
But for now, I'll be voting
------ Heroscaper2010 - I’m going to vote here.
Ultimately beyond the level 3 single hexes providing local height, the map just provides little dynamic play between heights and the road isn’t all that useful only being on the outsides.
First off...SUPER aesthetically pleasing. I love the look and it feels kinda like Brunak's Barracks...so well done.
I've got some issues with this map that became apparent after multiple tests:
1) The Top of the map gets all the focus, regardless of glyphs.
I've noticed, after playing that this map draws itself to the top for all the conflict. Couple reasons why I think that's the case are because there's a better pod location with the double hex outside the SZ, it's closer to the opponent so you can get early attacks AND reinforce quickly as needed.
2) Center NEVER got utilized. After many games, it was interesting to notice how the lava height was just never advantageous to take because the top was better to control.
3) Lower area got used a couple times, but very rarely contested. It's more open, so you'd think it's get a little more use...but it's a lot farther across from your opponent, so development and reinforcement is tougher.
4) Overall the lava on this map is very restricting. Lava maps are tricky because you need enough to keep gameplay interesting and risky...but not too much to limit what the armies can/want to do. I think this map does the latter. The map seemed too concentrated throughout with lava and would have preferred a little more "safe" spots for units to keep armies motivated to develop onto lava and then jump off as needed.
Of all those knitpicks...the biggest one was that the top of the map is VERY pod friendly and in games where I podded up, it seemed VERY strong position-wise.
I like the map, but not sure it's quite ready yet for an official up vote. for now.
------ Nomad - One play test was all this map took to come to a determination. The map looked great on the table. My opponent and I where eager to give it a whirl.
But maps with plateaus of lava field are very difficult to pull off successfully in my opinion. This one was not able to pull it off either. After setting up a screen on raised positions next to the road, the army with range sat back on the raised two-hex glyph just in front of the castle door and on height behind the castle walls to shoot down on the glyphs.
The two road paths up the middle where just not open enough to get through for the melee army - while a few burned on the lava field at the end of rounds. Those that ventured around the sides were easily picked off as well.
Nice map, but the ranged army had their strategy determined before initial initiative was rolled. And it worked without a challenge.
Flash_19 - After playing this map a few times at a Utah Monthly, it's clear it needs a little bit of adjusting. Every single time I played on the map or saw others play on the map, people develop right to the level 2 dungeon with their ranged units and just park them there. If I remember correctly, it was some sort of bring 2 format that was being run – because I played different armies for my games on it. With one of them (a primarily melee army), it was very difficult trying to push left and engage ranged figures that had developed right. On my other game, I pushed right with range, and wreaked havoc on my opponent’s melee units as he struggled to get to me. It is fairly easy to plug the gap leading into that level 2 dungeon as well, and while the height distribution at that gap does help with trying to attack screening units, the fact that it’s lava makes it less effective because of fear of losing units to end of round lava damage. LOS blockers do help a little with mitigating the ranged advantage, but I found I was still able to get the majority of the shots I wanted without having to expose my units too much.
The map looks beautiful (and I still enjoyed my games on it), but it needs a little bit of work.
------
Nomad - We got in a few games on this map. The battles were fairly engaging, but a few issues surfaced that gave concerns. 1) It is fairly is easy to set up a screen and shoot from range from the raised dungeon hexes to the right. 2) All the battles we engaged in wound up focusing on the center of the map - the glyphs weren't all that enticing to go after or hold unless they were powerful. 3) The map felt fairly short - if you have OM1 in the first round, you can run out your screen, and then develop your ranged pod to the right or on the center road tiles. By OM3, you can pepper your enemies from the center road hexes down on your opponent advancing from out their start zone or tied up with your screen. This was the strategy that was often deployed.
Tendril is a nice looking map. We did not dislike the battles. We couldn't really make up our mind until the fourth or fifth battle. Close, but ultimately I am going to vote
Sir Heroscape - This map is very aesthetically pleasing and at first glance looks pretty balanced...but there's a few issues with this one that you really only realize once you've played on it:
1. There are very limited "safe" spaces from height attacks UNLESS you're on the highest height. What that means is that all development into the map is "at risk" and gives advantage to whoever gets and maintains height first. This makes it very hard to contest the center of the map if your opponent gets there first, which brings me to my 2nd point...
2. The 1st Initiative of a game is MASSIVE for map control. 5-move figures can get to the central height in 2 moves. That means the large majority of units in Heroscape (5-move and above) will be able to do this...which means regardless of the army matchups, the advantage and position will go to whoever wins initiative at the beginning of the game. That means the opponent is in a guaranteed uphill battle while the winner of initiative can just keep filling and replacing that position. Gaining height first and maintaining it is of course part of the strategy in any game...but I felt like this map really made the advantage too one-sided. Additionally, it only takes 1-2 figures to lock up engagements in the center which can really clog up things, which brings me to my next point.
3. Range has a strong advantage on this map for a few reasons:
- By hanging back on EITHER left or right side on the 4-hexes just outside the SZ. This is especially true in Range vs Melee matchups. Range typically has a screen...they're able to send the screen into the clogging center and lock up engagements. In the meantime, Ranged figures can sit on those 4-hexes and range both the nearby glyph and the center of the map and force engagements up on that position.
- Kiting potential and using the center as a speed bump. Ranged figures with as low as 5 Range can shoot from one side of the center to the other and avoid engagements from 5 move figures on the very next turn. This allows time for the ranged units to kite backwards behind a screen or get a screen in position without risk of engagements on the ranged figures. All the worse if the screen is already in place and on the central height.
from me
------ Heroscaper2010 - Some definitions first (that may translate to other reviews):
Ultimate Height - The highest point(s) on the map. Also considered Local Height. Local Height - Point(s) on the map that do not have any connected terrain higher than it. Safe Space - A space on the map where there is no adjacent space higher than it. Includes points of Ultimate Height and Local Height.
Let's look at how this translates to Gradient:
Safe spaces are important for melee vs. melee engagements. As with everything, there is a balance. A flat map has X amount of safe spaces, but that would be a boring map. However, too few safe spaces makes the Local and Ultimate height too important for melee vs. melee engagements, and this is where Gradient runs into trouble. On Gradient, there are no safe spaces on the central Level 2 slab, forcing melee up and up until they reach either the one safe space on Level 3 or the Ultimate Height on the map. That or they can suffice to taking the Local Height outside of each SZ and the game turns into a yours/mine hill stand off. Simply put, there are not enough non-height safe spaces across the map to make a melee vs. melee battle engaging. Melee will almost always be attacking up or down.
Then there is the major double space denial issue throughout the entire center stretch of the map. Every piece of height or secondary height near the glyphs and middle of the map can be made to deny double spacers. Double spacers are stuck to level 1 on the outsides of the map, or level 2 nearing the middle of the map.
While I respect the effort here using sets that have no effects on the map, it makes these issues even more important. The height vs. low/middle ground must be dynamic and it's not. I vote
Sir Heroscape - This is a tough one for me. I played on this quite a bit cause I wasn't sure about the "feel" I was getting when I played on it. The general feel was "this is ok". That said, I think a . Here are my thoughts.
- General movement is good...development is fine.
- Action happens primarily in the center. I noticed action on the sides was pretty limited and really only happened when I tried to force it to happen.
- Strategy didn't feel super dynamic, but that could also be on the player or armies.
- I playtested WITHOUT the wall piece, and I still waffled on it.
That last point was actually the kicker to turn down I think. I playtested the map without the wall piece, and I liked the freedom of movement and sight from the center to the edge that it provided. It wasn't amazing, but I felt it was necessary. With the wall piece, it makes getting from center to edge or just lateral edge to edge movement much more difficult. That wall piece being added also breaks up the map into 3 lanes essentially...which isn't inherently bad, just that I noticed conflict tended to remain through the center, which I wasn't all that crazy about.
This one toes the line for me. I think all it needs is the wall piece removed and I would feel more comfortable about upvoting. For now,
------ Nomad - After a few battles, I am ready to cast a thumb. Like Sir Heroscape, I think this map is very close. Pathing from start zone to start zone is good and the theme is very well done. But, all battles focused on the center pathway resulting in the same strategy each game. Unless a powerful glyph appeared, the sides saw limited action. Moving from side to side was difficult with the middle often clogged. If I wanted a play a casual game I wouldn't mind setting it up. I would not be that excited to play on it in a tournament. Close, but I am going to vote for ARV induction.
Nomad - We got a few play tests in on Back Alley. I love the theme and the general design of the map. Back Alley is kind of close, but as of now I am going to vote for induction.
Only a couple of issues that I think can be remedied with a few tweaks, or more. 1) The glyphs are too easily blocked from the center of the map. No big deal unless one of the glyphs is powerful. One is pressed to go right from the get go because it is easy to take a glyph and run one figure in front to create lack of access for your opponent. You can't really go around the other side of the warehouse ruin or break down the wall without wasting a round or two, or more. Easy fix - increase the single hex access to the glyph going to the right from each start zone. 2) The middle of the map is tough for melee using Heroscaper2010's definition for safe space - a space on the map where there is no adjacent space higher than it. Basically, there are none in the middle area of the map. This played out in our play tests. Whoever got to the middle first rolled to victory - unless there was a powerful glyph.
In the current design, the winning army can pretty much be determined in the first round on Back Alley Fight depending on the power of the glyphs. Which really aren't worth going for if it means sacrificing the middle of the map. Hmm. But if you do go for the middle, then hope Wannok or another powerful glyph isn't there that you can't get at.
I would like to see this in the workshop thread because there is potential.
------ Flash_19 - First off, I think the bio is hilarious - so well done there.
My main issue with this map is equal access to glyphs. I strongly believe that one side should not have an advantage when it comes to being able to hold or control a glyph. It is really frustrating when one side has complete control over a glyph simply because of map limitations and are therefore able to dictate how much access the other player has to the glyph.
Building off of the glyph control issue (and really, it is just a different facet of the same problem) - the line of sight blockers are not in the best spots. So, I would love to see some adjustments there.
Other than that, height distribution seems good along with shadow tile placements (though I might want one or maybe two down on level one to help slower developing units more). And the overall layout of the map was so close to perfection - aka the shape of a hex. So, you missed that one by a hair.
This is a great draft and the map has great potential. Hope to see it reworked.
Nomad - Nice looking map with excellent use of the terrain. This is a compact map that gets the attack dice flying early and often. We got in two battles, which was enough to reach a verdict.
Three issues surfaced. In the first battle, Zelrig's army won initiative in the first round, flew to height, and rolled 2 skulls with the Special Attack, promptly taking out four Children of the Dark Star. The player for the Outsider army is very experienced and tried to space out his army as best he could in his start zone. The map is just too short for my taste without more protection for the start zones.
The second issue surfaced in both battles. There really isn't enough non-lava field paths in the center of the map. Armies got clogged up - figures, especially higher price common squads, did not what to risk leaving engagement and forfeit an attack and then died due to lava damage at the end of the round.
The third issue: Raelin posted up on the single raised hex just outside the start zone and was able to provide a couple of extra defense dice to a Sentinel of Jandar, who was sitting on the Wannok glyph only four hexes away. The Sentinel remained unfazed until rolling a 1 with the 20-sider trying to invoke a Wannok wound. That was fun.
It was an entertaining and quick map to play on. But, I am going to give it a vote for induction to ARV tournament maps.
First off, I just wanna say, I love seeing Leaf_It's maps with Marvel. He's one of the few mapmakers that really embraces that set, and he always comes up with something unique and fun. Not always balanced for tourney play, but more often then not, solid maps.
This one, falls into that category, but a little too much on the unbalanced. The main issue with this one is the "shortness" of the map combined with the speedbumps for hills. This allows range (especially flying range) to have a field day out of the gates. While Zelrig isn't usually gamebreaking in most formats/situations...he will LOVE this map! Turn one bombs from him are a must, and he'll be in prime position for a couple more before getting engaged. Dragon's in general are going to LOVE this map. They can take the highest height turn 1 and command that hill. If they lose the greenscale screen, they can retreat more to the center before going to the other side as needed. This works because the water actually works WONDERS for range with a screen. Where it's placed, allows for range to kinda sit back behind it and use it as a screen on it's own. Additionally, it's a great spot to stick Raelin where she can cover the left and central height with the water acting as it's own screen for her.
Marvel is tough to design with, this map is nifty and fun...for melee v melee it's probably not too bad, but range really likes this map and it's gunna be a headache in tournaments where good players know how to exploit the map.
------ Flash_19 - I like the design and aesthetic of this map, but I’m pretty sure I recall even the designer acknowledge it needs just a little more refinement. It shouldn’t take much, but a couple of tweaks will make it shine.
I would say the biggest problem at the moment is development out of the start zone – the map pulls pretty hard right. I like the placement of the RotV ruins aesthetically, but the way the map is set up, they don’t allow for a good rush on the outer hills. Something as simple as removing the dip that exists while coming around the outside corner of the ruin would help substantially. Also, with the pull to the right, I worry that the middle is currently too choppy to allow for crossing through the middle to the other side without taking more shots than necessary from ranged units.
I’d play with the level 3 and level 4 height distribution. I like the location of the RotV ruins (though depending on how dramatically the level 3 and 4 height distribution changes, you’ll probably want to fill in that dip around the outer edge so it’s easier to come around). You might also try playing around with the location of the Marvel ruins.
Nomad - I am also going to give this one a without playing on it. Longy418 stated that he has revised the map and that it fixes issues and aesthetics that he was aware of before submitting in a rush for the contest. After some play tests, he thinks the tweaked map plays much better. I am hopeful he will submit the revised version into the workshop for suggestions and reconsideration.
------ Flash_19 - As is, this map doesn’t offer the kind of depth that I would want to see in a tournament map. It is likely "balanced" from a theoretical standpoint, but it doesn't offer as much as I'd like in terms of decision making and will result in a stale experience with multiple games. Most games will see both armies going up the middle behind glacier cover, then playing a game of “she’ll be coming round the mountain when she comes” around the large glacier in the middle. There is no incentive to risk moving onto the lava field tiles towards the sides of the map. Power glyphs and better height distribution would work wonders for this map. I’d swap all the level three height with lava field tiles, throw on power glyphs, and bring the start zones a little closer together so that I could utilize some more terrain for better height distribution throughout the map.
I love the clear start zones and I think the LOS blockers are placed well, but I want to see more opportunities for decision making on the map. Thanks so much for the submission!
Nomad - Sacrifice is pleasant to look at on the table with a nice footprint and full use of tiles in the Swarm master set with the Jungle expansion. But, after a couple of battles on the map, some issues in game play emerged:
1) The map has a number of hillocks that dragons and ranged figures love. Braxas was a killing machine, flying from elevation to elevation across the map. I also worry about Zelrig bombs. In a single move or two, ranged squads can get height and fire away.
2) Given the number of hills and the bumpy pathing across the map, melee figures are at a distinct disadvantage to engage and not get showered by bullets, arrows, and ray guns.
3) First play-test was over on the first OM of round three resulting in a huge blowout. The second test barely made it to the 5th round, only because the losing team had 18 figures of melee to be decimated.
Perhaps the map can be cleaned up to improve the experience. I like the start zones, the central hive hill, and the placement of jungle and water tiles. As is, I vote for Sacrifice.
----- Flash_19 -
Sir Heroscape - This map suffers from having a small footprint, which can be concerning for start zone bombs as well as congestion in general...but I think it does enough things right to make it work.
1) Development is easy and fast. While Range has a nice double hexer to work with, they got just 1 turn to get into position, cause the map is setup really well so that by OM2 your opponent can already engage and attack.
2) Glyphs. Well placed and low power. They're not in the way. They have a natural spot and they give a fair bonus. Not using them doesn't feel like a waste, and using them can give you just enough of an edge. I really like the choices...especially because they are less likely to "Break" the map with this selection of glyphs
3) Height. There is really only 1 good spot for any Dragon, Raelin or range and that's the 2hexer immediately out of the startzone. But that's okay! The rock is actually pretty well postioned so you can hide behind it one turn and then run around the next to engage the height. Also, the fact that the opponent has to basically stay in the same spot to get the bonus makes it easier for melee to plan on how to engage and attack. I'm okay with this. Range already has an inherent advantage...so while they can get earlier attacks in, it'll likely only last 1 turn before they have their teeth punched in.
4) Aesthetics don't determine balance...but this is a beautifully designed map. It looks great, the title is fitting and the build is resourceful and efficient with the sets being used. The map is surprisingly free flowing and open and I enjoyed every game on it.
Overall, I feel like this will be a staple of my go-to maps. It goes against normal builds that give players more time to set up, and that's a good thing in my book. It encourages quick engagements and furious, close battles. for me.
----- Nomad - A very attractive looking map when set up on the table. Small? Choke points? Two hex height that can rain down with range on approaching melee?
After 10+ tests, Drider has a big from this humble judge. It is not that it took us that many tests to determine whether or not it was worthy of joining the ARV cannon - we just enjoyed playing on it so much that we didn't want to take the map down. Drider will become a staple go-to for future in-person tournaments.
The action is quick and the battles are close - who cares about the small footprint. The potential choke points were not a factor because of the quick flanking ability and great LOS blockers. The two height hexes were only good for one attack - melee armies were able to engage and destroy quickly.
I really dig Drider. Give it a go and buckle up. Well done Ulysses!
----- Flash_19 - I’m torn on this map. I love the look of it, and I think it’s very well done considering the terrain limitations for the map. As much as it pains me, I am going to go with a though.
The main problem for me is the highest plateau in the center of the map. Battles typically consisted of a rush to take and control it because it is such a good position. This meant that the majority of conflict centered around this point. With such a small map, I feel like there has to be a greater draw to other portions of the map. The initiative glyph at the bottom didn’t seem to pull focus away from the main plateau as much as was necessary. This mad rush for the central hill caused the map to feel stale with repeat games.
Unfortunately, it can also be too easy to hold that plateau for a strong bonding army like a dragon with greenscales. The way that the map is constructed limits the number of attacks that can be made on the position a little too much in my opinion. Personally, while I love the aesthetics of the single hex rock outcrops adjacent to that position, simply removing the outcrops and leaving their bases as shadow tiles would go a long way to make assaults on that area easier (and this change would be sufficient to make me rescind my downvote). While it is possible for units to come down along the edge of the plateau near Lodin, the dip down to level 0 shadow, then up to level 2 can hurt slower moving figures trying to get into position.
It is also worth noting that because of the small size, it doesn’t take much range to threaten a significant portion of the map. Nilfheim, for example, can sit comfortably on that plateau and hit many units trying to skirt around the large 3-hex rock in the middle.
Great work on this map – it is very well done overall.
Nomad -It took a full five battles to come to a conclusion - even then, it is a teetering conclusion. We thought the map was pleasing to the eye and that the concept behind the build was quite engaging. We even had a couple of very tight battles that came down to a figure or two per army.
There are a number of strategies to choose from at the onset: An army can shoot up the jungle valley and make an immediate impact on your opponent's start-zone, send runners along the edges of the maps to gain the glyphs, or begin the ascent up the hills on either side.
We all know height trumps all in heroscape, so that became the dominant strategy. Even if your opponent gained a glyph - good luck holding it if you happened to occupy that hill.
But here is where the map fell short, at least for us. Each game eventually turned into your-hill/my-hill warfare. The army that was ahead ended up turtling on height to wait for the opponent to cross the valley. And, if they had range, the army crossing the sand would suffer a couple of attacks before they could engage. Range tended to have a distinct advantage overall, even with the jungle coverage in the middle of the map.
We enjoyed playing on Island of Nazibarr, but given that bit of imbalance favoring ranged figures and the inevitable turtling at the end, I have to vote to induct into the ARV list of tournament approved maps. The map can be fun . . . maybe some work-shopping might help it meet the standard fully.
----- Sir Heroscape -
I really wanted this one to work, but it's going to have to stay in the "casual" gaming category.
The glaring issue here is really just the 2 hills. While the design does a good job of allowing gradual development on each side, and actually pretty good development overall, it's significantly hindered by the amount of "steps" you have to take to get to the top to contest any type of range. Honestly, range doesn't even need to get to the top, they can get to the first level or two and shoot you while to ascend and then run away to the other hill. That's also another issue is that melee has to split up forces to try and cover 2 hills at once to keep range from taking the advantage.
Melee does have jungle and does have the low ground center...but I felt like the trudge up the hill to develop was just too much to overcome. It's really hard to invest that much development onto hills and then have to come off it to attack, then have to go back up...which with fliers or range will happen constantly. I will say that I think this map is close though. I think if it's 1-2 levels lower and doesn't have as many elevations changes, then I think it's significantly better...but for now it was just too good for range and/or flying and/or flying range.
officially...but would love to see some slight adjustments and a resubmit.
Sir Heroscape - This map for me was a bit of a gamble. I wasn't sure about it going in, but felt like we should give it a chance. That said, some of my fears were confirmed after playing on it:
1) While not the most important, the aesthetic appeal isn't quite there for this map. When I built it, I wasn't looking at it excited to find out what intricate game decisions I'd have to make. It just looked, well...bland. That leads me to #2
2) The gameplay. There are really only 2 levels on this map. Ground level and then level 2. Having such a flat map really makes the dynamic of play rather boring. I didn't find game decisions being very hard or engaging. Of course this comes with the fact that 2 of the thinnest sets (terrain wise) were used to build the map, but I still felt like more could have been done. Even if it were a smaller, more narrow map...I still felt like more careful design could have at least given us 2-3 level 3 hexes to spice things up.
3) Startzones. I had to constantly check the build instructions to see what they were. The terrain wasn't placed in a logical way, and the spaces selected were kinda wonky, which made it difficult to remember. For example, the sand and rock hexes were split up, when the SZ on one side could have had 3 sand hex and the other 3 rock hex and then the rest could either be road and/or water.
Overall, the map just didn't feel "complete". I do like the asymmetrical aspect, but with these 2 sets, it will take being a lot more meticulous and careful in design to make the map work and I just didn't feel like this measured up to what we're looking for.
for me
----- Nomad - No, Goat Path is not the most aesthetic of maps, but after setting it up and playing on it four times, it kind of grows on you. Obviously the asymmetrical design of the map is a delight and very well thought out. Two of the battles were thrillers, one was OK, and one was a blow-out. There is enough here to make me think real hard about ARV inclusion.
Ultimately, I am going to give Goat Path a for two reasons:
1) Each of the four games were very, very similar. Both armies would go for the "plateau" of two spaces high. Control of that plateau and the adjacent glyph was of single importance. The wide open spaces were really only used to access the plateau, or if it was too crowded, the occasional squad member would try to threaten the opponent's start zone.
2) All four battles were won by the army that started in the start zone on the right when looking at the map image. It could be coincidence, but in analyzing the map more closely, I found that the army on the right needed fewer moves to access the plateau. This was the deal-breaker for me.
Nice effort on the map considering the terrain limitations for these two sets. Perhaps balancing access to the plateau and providing for more strategic options would lend itself to another consideration.
Nomad - We got in five battles on this map. Building a quality tournament map with a small master set like Battle for the Underdark can be tough. This map proved to be tough. Congratulations for making the very tough effort AYP, but I vote for ARV induction.
The map is too short, start zone to start zone. Zelrig bombs on OM1, oh yes, and the dragon is covered by Raelin while she is still in the start zone. Deathwalker 9000 moved up a few hexes and rained explosion-attack-havoc into the opponent's start zone from the outset. Generally, a ranged army who wins initiative on OM1 of round one has a great advantage.
After a couple of battles, my nieces and nephew where complaining before the battle even started, "Oh no, the really small map again!" We did have one close battle, but the rest were quite lopsided. We started discussing how to improve the map (moving the start-zones 90 degrees, then rotating the glaciers, and then ...) but determined it wouldn't be a tweak or two, but a total rebuild.
----- Sir Heroscape - I'm going to have to give this a
I actually really liked this one, but after building it and playing first hand I realized just how small this map actually is. It's aesthetically pleasing, and I like that the glyphs push you to the edges, but the map is so short from start zone to start zone. I quickly realized just how detrimental that can because even within just 1 turn you can secure a strong position in the center, block off key pathways and gun down opponents, or just slog the game out with chokepoints. I also realized that the edges don't really work as a way to route the opponent because of the horizontal orientation of the ice. It makes it extremely difficult to run around and even then, the edge is only a 1 hex gap (glyph acts as a chokepoint)...so it's easily clogged up as well. Overall, I really just couldn't pass this with those errors. That said, when I looked at it, I think with a few adjustments this map might work if the startzones were switched to the "glyph sides" and glyphs were moved to where the start zones are. That, and/or flipping the orientation of the ice mountains.
Sir Heroscape - The map itself I've always liked the look of, but the gameplay showed some issues. Here they are:
1) Except for games where I forced myself to develop/play to the right of the map, it was always more beneficial to go to the left to take "my hill". That left gameplay rather one-note.
2) This is a "Your-hill-my-hill" map and it's compounded by the fact that glyphs are on each hill, and the better glyph (random glyphs remember) will prove to be a big advantage to the player who get's it and forces the other player to fight uphill for it.
3) The glyph positions are easily defendable and practically impenetrable if you set yourself up right.
4) The lateral movement is really hard to move around for going from one hill to the other. Your-hill-my-hill maps can be balanced if lateral movement is easy between hills in order to contest an opponents position...but the hills are VERY defendable and easily reinforcable from the startzone
5) The Road never got used. Literally. I didn't have a game where the road was ever useful (except when I forced myself to use it, just to see if it was useful). Because development is so natural going to the left, the road doesn't really pose useful. The road primarily starts and goes from the right side to the opposing right side, but the gameplay is almost always on the left. What's more the extra road hexes going laterally in the SZ make no sense in gameplay. I can see the intent, that is, to jump units on the road to speed them up through the center...but combat almost never occurred in the middle and it was always more useful to just have them move to the left through the map then to try and speed them along the road on low ground.
Overall, I just see a lot of issues with the gameplay of this map...which aren't/weren't immediately noticeable in theoryscaping or looking at the map. But they were pretty obvious once I'd played a handful of games on the map. Definitely a from me.
----- Flash_19 - This map was the focus of a map talks done by BiggaBullfrog and I, and that video highlights the main issues with the map very well. Here's a link to the video:
The largest problem with the map is the podding potential brought about by how the map favors development to the left of the start zone. This ideal podding location can also be covered by a Raelin in the startzone – no order marker is required to move her to a very solid position. Range versus melee battles seemed to always consist of range establishing a dominant position on the level two area outside of the startzone and proceeding to shoot at advancing melee units to their heart’s content. In a range versus range match up, the game turns into the classic “two hills” scenario where each army claims their side and tries to snipe the other army on the other hill – if the glyphs are slightly mismatched at all, this can lead to a serious advantage to one side – because development to the left is easier, it is easy for a player to establish firm control over the glyph on their left side.
The map does have pretty good LOS blockers, and I liked the attempt to ease development to the right of the start zone with the use of ladders.
Nomad - Honestly, I had some reservations about Trashing the Camp after building it. The two hills, the bit of perched height in the middle of the map . . . hmm.
After a few tests, we were pleased with the close battles and fun we had. Not enough to be convinced, we tried many iterations of figures and army builds to try to break the map. Couldn't do it.
Trashing the Camp earns my for ARV induction. I would not hesitate to throw it in the fray in future tournaments. It is balanced, well designed, and strategic in determining best play for your army. It can get congested in the middle. I would encourage that a couple of glyphs be placed on the edges of the map 7 to 8 spaces away from each start zone, but that is up to tournament directors. The battles seemed to flow a little better and reduced the congestion in the middle with that option in my opinion, but still, the glyphs were an afterthought compared to gaining center high ground.
Another well designed map by Superfrog. Thank you.
----- Sir Heroscape - This one, unfortunately, I have some issues with, and it will be enough to warrant a from me.
While generally speaking I'd prefer maps to have glyphs on them, this map is compact enough and has enough going for it to keep the battle moving...in most cases. I like the aesthetic and the simple map build as well as the center which does good at making it hard for dragons to perch mid-map.
That said, no glyphs also hurts this map and causes campy strategies. While running through the fast middle isn't too hard, my main issues with this map are the 2 hex just outside the SZ and the 3 hex to the right of the startzone. Good counters to these positions are that 1) you can get height on the hill and fire down, and 2) those positions don't have jungle cover. While good, what about going against melee? for example, Nilfeim, Greenies, Raelin absolutely love this map. from the Startzone Raelin can cover the 2hex AND the 3hex positions without having to move. This means no turn spent on developing her. Greenies are able to block routes to either location while Nilf jumps between those 2 spots, moving anytime someone gets too close. Agreed, the ruins are able to help melee or range units hide until they're ready to attack, but for melee, it's just delaying the inevitable end scenario of having to attack up on that position.
Again, the compactness of the map and speedy middle helps melee get to the fight while protected by jungle, but I felt that Nilf, Greenies and Rae...or Q9, Rats, Rae (or whatever Range you want really) was just too strong due to the simple 1 move development for the units to height, all while not having to move Raelin. Melee games on this tend to be pretty even and work out fine...but add in range and I'm afraid the positions so close to the SZ are just too strong. and as I mentioned earlier, some glyphs could help force those campy strategies to come off and fight a bit. Specifically I think wannok would be a must and maybe Kelda, or even Def +1. Something to help give the edge to whoever has to assault those positions, but for now, this is a for my vote.
----- Flash_19 - I really like the look of this map. Overall, it is a pretty solid map, but there are a couple significant problems that hurt it.
Oh Raelin, how you ruin maps.
Unfortunately, the curse of Raelin is a little too much for this map. Raelin, while sitting in the start zone, can cover the 3-hex on level 3 to the right of the start zone, and the 2-hex on level 3 immediately in front of the start zone. This creates fantastic podding potential that can be very difficult to fight against. The jungle is placed well throughout the map to try and help alleviate this issue; however, it’s not quite enough in my opinion.
The problematic nature of this spot seemed to be enhanced if a ranged army is playing the side of the map where the large ruin is to the right of their startzone. The large ruin seems to exacerbate the range advantage by limiting the flow of units along the outside edge of the map, particularly if ranged armies utilize a screen.
A few other thoughts:
- Fast moving range, particularly the Krav, are pretty strong on this map considering they can hit the enemy startzone on turn one. Obviously this means Zelrig can bomb the start zone on OM 1 as well.
- I would like to see glyphs on the map (likely on the outside edges) as I feel they would make the map more dynamic. This would require a little reworking on the outside edges.
I don’t think this map needs much reworking to be successful. I do like it quite a bit, but a few tweaks will make it shine even more.
Nomad - Three battles were conducted on Refraction - enough to give a verdict.
This map is designed beautifully and after building it, we were eager to give it a whirl. In theory-scaping, I felt this would be one of the best VW-RotV maps created.
Well, it is close. But not close enough for me to vote for induction. Here are my issues, as minor as they may be. In three battles, only one figure happened to cross the lava rock plateau between the ruins, and that was in the end game. Too many elevation changes for melee figures to progress across the map to have a fighting chance - or they get tied down by the lava plateau. Here are the two biggest issues: 1) the single rock hex on height just above the Kelda glyph. In two of the three battles that was the key and dominant hex on the map - everything else was superfluous after round three (and in the other, flyers pinned down their opponents army before they could make an effort); 2) The lava-rock plateau - it divides the map into two narrow battlefields. Generally, lava only works when it sparsely placed throughout the map, not one big section of the map. Just not enough pathing.
OK, all of that said, I really don't think it is too far away. I would keep the basic structure, provide a little more non-lava in the region between the ruins, and swap out that single highest elevation rock hex with a lava-rock hex. And, perhaps provide a lane of less bumpiness for melee to develop.
The map is wonderfully designed and beautiful to view. I do think it is better as is than many maps that use the same combination of terrain ... but it could be better. Game play could be better, especially when considering the two separate narrow battlefields on each side of the map.
for my vote for ARV induction ... but if the other judges love it, I could change my vote (hmm, no I won't. I just can't get over the two divided battle zones).
----- Sir Heroscape - It became pretty apparent during playtesting what the issues with this map were:
1) Glyph choice/position
2) Lack of use of the map on the Lava-side
3) Range vs Melee matchups
4) double-spaced denial on the lava side glyph.
All of these issues very clearly represented themselves as I playtested...here are my thoughts:
1) Kelda isn't a great glyph to pull a conflict. It's a nice glyph nearing the endgame for a hero, but it doesn't pull the conflict for control during the game. It's also a glyph that you likely won't want to go that far out of the way to get. I think Kelda on the low-ground location, offset by Wannok or Valda might be a nice change.
2) It's not really advantageous to move and develop on the lava side of the map. It takes to long, and you can gain better position by avoiding it altogether and just going down the "water side". Battles aren't fought on the lava side.
3) Range is SOOOO strong on this map. i didn't realize just how good until I build the map and played on it. the central hill that holds the single lava hex on the water side is incredibly powerful. Range can sit back behind that hill and ping all day long on advancing melee. and if they have a screen, they can throw the screen up on the hill to just tie things up. This map would need to eliminate that barrier if it wanted to give melee a better chance.
4) this came up in an endgame scenario where I had a single-spaced range unit vs a double spaced melee unit. the 1-hex range unit grabbed Kelda and then could sit there and fire without ever taking an engagement from a double-spaced melee unit. It's impossible from that position to get engaged by a double-spaced unit. and that alone imo breaks this map. no location on a map should be build in such a way that a figure literally has no way of attacking its opponent.
Sorry to sound so harsh on this one, I don't mean to. This is a good start, but still has some work to go before it's tournament ready. for me.
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We hope to see you utilize the Workshop Thread as needed! We would love to help you fine tune your maps.
Nomad - We got in four battles on Pure Gold. Full disclosure: I did not like this map much during the initial scoring for a variety of reasons including that the single rock outcrops would topple during play and the games would all resort to a battle for the bridge. Although my sleeve did catch the outcrops a couple of times during play, it wasn’t terribly annoying. The battle for the bridge? Not once was it a deciding factor. The map is narrow, but it doesn’t impact game play enough to warrant outright dismissal of the map. Not once did the treasure glyph under the bridge get taken – we just didn’t play with any small 3-height unique heroes. Camping small figures under the bridge was never pursued in any of the battles. I loved the single hex start spots in the middle of the map because it caused highly strategic planning before the dice were rolled. The battle for the glyph of Wannock was often intense. The map seemed to play fair enough for different army builds, getting out of the start zones is easy with a number of options, and there are no bottlenecks. Pure Gold may not be the best map ever created, but I love that it will bring a different flavor of game-play to the tournament scene due to the creativity of the author, Superfrog. I vote for Pure Gold.
Sir Heroscape - This was easily the most "borderline" map we accepted into the Top 10, but I was willing to give it a chance and boy am I glad I did. This map is SO deceptive in the way it is built. You think the bridge is OP until you realize that it can be engaged from just about anywhere and is countered by Wannock. The 7-hexers look like great podding locations, but the development of this map is deceptively quick and it's actually quite hard to set up podding armies on that plateau because it's actually quite high. The road develops units really well, but you don't NEED it to develop into the map either. Typically I'd send units both along the low ground shadow on the wannock side while also sending units along the road. The Bridge made for some good height, but there's shadow to help attacking figures as well as the trees as LOS blockers. I was extremely surprised by this maps playability, and I think it's one of the first maps to successfully push the envelope of what a "typical" tournament map should look like. I felt it was designed in a very balanced and fun way. I also second Nomad's love for the Startzone spots in the middle, I think those are brilliantly placed and always made for some good early game decisions. I also think it helps balance the map because it can limit podding or placing Raelin because someone can put a bruiser in the middle to lock things up and cause fits for the opponent. I really enjoyed games on this map. I'm giving this map an
BiggaBullfrog - Like others, I was very pleasantly surprised by the balance of this map. The rock-paper-scissors aspect of counters built into the map works out nicely and makes for games with lots of strategic choices. (For those wondering, the bridge is the rock, which counters the seven-hex dungeon pieces of height which are the scissors, which counter Wannok which is the paper). The length of the map was helped by the start zones in the middle, which allow for some quick action and more options for map control. That can be scary when Syvarris is able to move onto height and start shooting into the start zone on turn one, but that comes at the risk of the opponent's figure not smacking down on the elf first.
One concern about the map is the power of flying figures, especially dragons. Units like our favorite Nilfheim, Braxas, and Zelrig can notably fly from the bridge to the seven-hex pieces of height, giving them great mobility and safe areas to hide on. This was dangerously powerful in general and hard to combat without extremely careful play.
My larger concern was the seven-hex pieces of height. They make for a yours/mine scenario when armies are facing each other as players dare each other to give up their piece of height. The bridge does counter this somewhat, but it takes a lot of effort to take the bridge, and even then LoS blockers and the range required makes it difficult for 6-and-lower range figures to hit the height well. The bigger concern was melee armies. While the road allows for quick engagement, it only connects with the height in two spaces, and if the first one is blocked you're not hitting the second. The single shadow space didn't do enough to help figures attacking up on the height. (That's another note in and of itself -- there is plenty of shadow behind the hills but not enough in front of them. This makes it easier to defend the hill than to take it. I can understand some shadow due to the potentiality of a figure starting in the middle taking the high ground, but I feel one or two spaces would be sufficient for that scenario.)
Overall, I felt the seven-hex hills were too powerful. They shot the road, Wannok, and each other, and it was obvious how to win the game. I do think that there is some crazy good potential here, and the map was fun to play when that aspect wasn't being exploited. I just felt that massing units on the hill was too strong without enough counters.
Very close, but I vote for Pure Gold.
Flash_19 - This map is much more balanced than it initially appeared when I first looked at it, and clearly demonstrates very careful thought. I particularly love the crispness of the start zones, the placement of the trees as LOS blockers, and the strong theme. I also loved the starting spaces in the center of the map.
The primary problem with this map, however, is the placement of the 7-hex hills near Wannok. They are incredibly powerful, and because of the power of that position, every game I played on the map felt like a battle to control the hills - that’s where the majority of the conflict took place each game. It was a little too easy for ranged armies (including dragons) to hold the hill while getting lots of shots at approaching units.
The shadow tiles around the 7-hex hills don’t feel quite as well placed as the ones running along the side of the bridge. I would like to see at least one more shadow tile placed between the two hills that would benefit melee armies attacking up on the hills, and while they are approaching as well. You also might consider adjusting the tiles around the base of the two hills because I feel a couple would likely be sufficient instead of the four (though I understand you’re using the 3-hex rock bases, but I think they could be better utilized). The shadow tiles under the bridge could be used to help on the Wannok side - they weren’t used at all in any of the games I played on the map.
While I like the bridge overall, it didn’t end up being as solid of a counter to the power of the hills combined with Wannok on the opposing side of the map, and it didn’t see very much action as a result (especially in range versus melee matchups).
I don’t think the map needs a dramatic overhaul in order to be balanced. I would make some small tweaks to shadow placement, LOS blockers (maybe considering the use of the 3-hex rock outcrops?), etc. to mitigate the power of the 7-hex positions. There are some wonderful things you already have on the map that help with those hills. For example, a stout hero on those center start spaces (especially one that bonds – like Ne-Gok-Sa), was a huge help in one of the games I played at preventing a ranged army from being able to pod on the 7-hex position as easily. However, I didn’t feel like it was quite enough.
The map is so close – but for me it’s leaning just enough towards unbalanced that I’d like to see some changes before approving it. The map was a pleasant surprise and I hope to see it resubmitted. I would love to see it added to the ARV once some small tweaks are made.
Sir Heroscape - I'll be brief. I've got some issues:
1) Aesthetically, it doesn't really do it for me. I feel like the combination of sets could be really cool, but the design is just a little lackluster. While looks in-and-of-themselves are not the most important part of a maps design, they are a part of it, and this one just doesn't LOOK appealing to me.
2) This map really suffers from no power glyphs. The reason being that the whole map is not used, and glyphs often help to spread out the conflict. Power glyphs on the side would definitely help use the whole map...but even then it still might not help the #1 issue I have....
3) #1 issue. Games will almost always be in the center of this map because of the fast development using the road. The startzones are such that a large majority of an army can in 1 turn jump on the road and by turn 2 be at the doorstop of the opponent. At that point, it's a really strong position because you can hold height, and keep funneling in troops (within a couple turns) from you startzone to the opponents startzone. The sides are little to not used because it's just wasted activations on the low ground that take too long to route the opponent, and even then it's lava when you jump up and so it's difficult to position well. The best position for an army is to control the center and the road because from there you can reach all relevant positions. And even if the opponent is sneaking around an edge, it's a quick jump over from the center to cut that off.
Overall the gameplay was fairly uninteresting. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that's just how I see it. If a map isn't fun or exciting to play on than it's likely there's something else going on there...and for this one there are some things keep it from meeting the standard of tournament maps.
BiggaBullfrog - I do like the looks of this map -- I think the lava/fortress combo evokes a cool image of destruction that's going on, especially in coordination with the name "Iconoclast." On the whole, the build has some neat aesthetics going on for it, and the columns are placed properly to block line of sight to keep ranged prowess down.
Unfortunately, it's also apparent from looking at the map that there are a lot of hexes that are just extra. The pathing going to the left of each start zone is particularly noticeable in this regard, as it's a more difficult path to the action, and the way that the height and lava plays out makes it not worth the effort in the long run. Armies will always be developing through the center and right side of the map since they give the most direct and advantageous paths into the fight. Even then, there are still extra water hexes put along the right side of the map that will never get used. I'm not against splashing some extra hexes along the edge of a map for aesthetic appeal and to round out the sets being used, but on this maps, since there are so many that won't see play, it feels like an excess.
Where the action takes place also factors into this. The center area is the hot spot for fighting. As I mentioned, the columns do a great job of blocking line of sight, and the lava height also helps keep range from dominating. But unfortunately the two in tandem really discourage taking the high ground, which effectively lessens the footprint area where action actually happens, and the grind in the middle ends up worse than expected. Normally I would applaud the clever use of lava/line of sight blockers here (and I still do), but with such a small usable footprint to begin with, it ends up hurting the map more than helping it. If it were redesigned to utilize action along a wider area, this lava/column combo would do really well. As is, this map isn't cutting it.
BiggaBullfrog - This map uses jungle and castle pieces to make a really beautiful map that also captures the theme of jungle-claimed ruins of a long lost city/building. I really like the name Battlefield 23, as it evokes the image of a secret location where something went wrong or powerful artifacts were hidden — perfect for armies to invade in search of loot (and opponents to fight!). It’s a really cool and fun feel while playing on the map.
However, my play did draw my attention to a hex of the map. Just outside of the start zone to the right, there is a single raised hex next to a piece of jungle. This hex is sheltered, protected from both melee and ranged attacks due to jungle and castle pieces, and covers the nearby hill and its nearby chokepoints. Basically a perfect Raelin perch. The chokepoints are also perfect for Rats, which can easily clog ways in and create a fortress, with ranged units on the hill shooting away.
Unfortunately, even if this single hex were to be taken away, I don’t think the map would shine like it would/could/should. It’s easier in general to develop your army by going to the right. The hill is protected from counterattacks, and it leads to campy games with players claiming their hill, then waiting for the other to attack. While a beautiful map, this one is too easy to exploit. I really hope it can get reworked/rebalanced so that it can shine in both gameplay and pure aesthetics, but for now it’s not there yet.
I vote to induct Battlefield 23.
Sir Heroscape - I'm not seeing as many issues as Bigga is on this one, but every game I've played so far has felt a little weird. I think the main reason for that is the lack of power glyphs. It's amazing what that subtle difference will make. If there are no power glyphs to be had, then the map I feel like has to be even more balanced in order to make sure the different positions and elevation can't be exploited. While exploitation hasn't happened [successfully] for me yet, I trust Bigga and that there may be some issues here. For me, the treasure glyphs do nothing. Rather than spend activations going to the edge, I spend activations trying to control the center and then move to the edges (using the road) if my opponent is trying to pod up on height. I feel like the treasure glyphs are wasted, and I'm just not sure that this map design is "perfect" in the sense that without power glyphs it is completely balanced. Power glyphs allow you to build the map in a way to deter a podding army on height, or create focus on multiple areas on the map. I'm not sure the design is inherently bad, I just feel like it's missing something. For me, that's definitely some power glyphs that will help balance the map (and just throw the treasure glyphs in the middle somewhere to pick up along the way), but some of Bigga's points would also be worth looking into, even though I didn't see those particular issues in my games.
For now it's a for me...though I really don't think this one is far off at all.
Sir Heroscape - I wasn't too sure about this map, but after playing on this map many many times, I'm going to give it a........
My initial concern with this map was that it was too big and battles would become somewhat divided. But, I really liked how this played. I was concerned development would be an issue and the Raelin perch at the top as well. That all said, this map is deceptively good at developing an army and allowing figures to get to the center by the second turn. I like the wide open flat ground that allow quick movement despite the wider footprint. The Jungle is really well placed for developing armies if range takes height first, and there's no easy way to block ones self off from attacks. I really really like the cave area because it was always fun to fight the battle on the plateau and then near the end of the round jump down into the shadowy cave and skirmish over Wannock. There's shadow, height variation, LOS blockers and a glyph in that region that allow for some fun back-and-forth play. I will say that most games the glyph in the water was forgotten and neglected. Sometimes that was the case because it was a weaker one, but that position is also very compromising for the unit taking the glyph and it's hard to fill and replace that position consistently. That said, that alone is not enough for a downvote. The Raelin perch is a bit of concern...but in my experience it's extremely open and exposed with the ability to be attacked from just about anywhere and played right an opponent can take her right off. I didn't feel it broke the map...though it's important to be weary of it. So, I'll take a little chance on this one and give it an as I really enjoyed the games and felt the map was balanced AND also very thematic.
TREX - After a handful of games on this map Ive come to many of the same conclusions as Sir H on it. My biggest concern are the Raelin perches. Though I really only find any fault with those. I was pleasantly surprised at how the map looked built. It really fits the theme and is great to look at. The only minor quibble on the building of the map would be the two single rock out crops that arent securely locked down. Though they didnt get bumped too much in any of our games. The map appears to be a very large in footprint but surprisingly most of the map is used. I felt like the map was a little more fun when the glyph by the waters edge was a better one. Overall my thoughts on the map were very positive and I very much enjoyed playing on this map. I happily give this a vote to be inducted into the arv.
Nomad - We performed a total of six play-tests on Coastal Cave. I had some initial concerns about this map – why it didn’t include any treasure glyphs despite the theme of the contest, a few single-hex routes on either side of the ruins and behind the 3-hex rock outcrop, the use of Wannock on yet another map, and the single-hex heights in the center of the map. The map is large, but it doesn’t seem to hinder play because of the unlimited escapes from the start zones and the well-placed ruins and jungle pieces that can be used for coverage. The theme of the map is well done and creative. Coastal Cave is nice to view as well. After the battles, I still have reservations. Every battle was similar – both armies would grapple for the grass single-hexes in the middle of the map shooting down on the glyph in the water or into the cave while simultaneously trying to gain control over the glyph of Wannock at the end of a round. Yes, those two grass hexes are open and easy to engage if you can get through any screen that your opponent might set up, but still, every battle had the same flavor. The glyph in the water was largely ignored. I like the map, but I just don’t think it is tournament ready yet. If I were to use it in a tournament setting, I would make a few tweaks. Just brainstorming and I haven’t fully thought this through, but perhaps eliminating the single-grass tiles in the middle of the map, placing a treasure glyph on the central grass plateau, swapping the location of the 3-hex rock outcrop with the single-hex outcrop (placing it where the glyph of Wannock is currently located), and using a different random glyph instead of Wannock in the cave. Again, I do like the map in general, but if I saw it at a tournament I would not be thrilled because I would know exactly how the battle will play-out. It is close, but I vote for Coastal Cave.
BiggaBullfrog - Pirates are cool, and a pirate hideout-themed battlefield is cool too. The aesthetics and theme of this map are great, especially for the contest that we were holding. It is a bit weird thematically that the "treasure" (glyph, but not a treasure glyph) is something that hurts instead of helps (helps you by hurting the opponent, instead of helping you to hurt the opponent), but that wasn't a big deal for me.
The map is big, and there is a lot of climbing involved in it. Larger maps with large central hills often need a way to balance the power that comes with taking control of the center area, and this map looks to do that with jungle bush for extra defense and some LoS blocking with the ruins. Said ruins are very useful to sneak up behind before attacking the central area, and the jungle is well-spaced, but with so much high ground to worry about, it can be difficult to get a good strike in once a player falls behind, especially if the player ahead can spread out some ranged units on the high ground.
Especially notable are the two single hex grass pieces on the highest point of the map (the rock hexes by the cave are also notable, but in less powerful positions since they mostly only shoot into the cave). These grass hexes give shooting lanes across the battlefield, allowing any figure with at least 5 range to be able to hit either glyph. A player that hunkers down on that area usually has a huge advantage, shooting figures coming up the hill and shooting glyphs at their leisure. Having the two hexes would seem to balance that by giving both players a chance to take one, but a melee won't have a ton of use for the hex, and if one player gets ranged figures on both it's a big power spike.
With the camping potential of the high ground and how difficult it is for a player to come back after taking some losses due to the hill slowing units down, I don't feel that this map quite makes it into the "best of the best." It makes for fun games and is great for casual play, but just provides too many exploitable areas for competitive play.
Sir Heroscape - After a lot of playtests and thought on this one I think I’ll be voting
Here are some of my struggles:
1) I really feel that the water and molten lava detract from the use of this map. It feels even more narrow and restricted by not being able to move along the edges. These pieces are essentially wasted in their current position.
2) the move glyph is unnecessary. Even for 4 move figures this map will do just fine. I’d rather run to the middle and fight for height then expend resources for the move glyph. Such a small map with quick development makes the move glyph...well...meh. Defense +1 that’s a different story.
3) the area around Dagmar seems congested. I felt like games avoided that area because it was difficult to maneuver outside of grabbing the glyph or attacking it at the end of the round. I didn’t like it.
4) the biggest thing for me was this map was so one-dimensional. Playing it issued the same strategy...get to the top first, control the center and win. The center was really only the spot for conflict and I never felt like the map lent itself to unique and different playstyles or strategies. It’s so small and tight that he who gets highest first wins.
Overall the games were bloody and fast but not very interesting. I think it’s not quite there. For these reasons I vote NAY
BiggaBullfrog - A small map utilizing swamp, lava, and jungle, Jungle Fever is almost surprisingly pretty. Although the Hive on top of burning lava seems a little out of place, the map as a whole works pretty well aesthetically and makes for a fun little battlefield for players to have it out on. It sports three main pathways to choose from when leaving the start zone, and each leads to a different aspect of the map. The side with the glyph of Dagmar is narrow with lava height to claim if you're feeling risky, the side with Valda is more open but has more lava to keep figures there on their toes, and the central path has a mix of lava and non-lava height for figures to fight over, though the pathing is narrow.
Due to the small size of the map, the lava covers a lot of territory. One one hand, this makes games a little more focused on risk and reward, as players have to choose whether a piece of real estate is valuable enough to warrant a commitment to holding lava height, or if they should play it safe and hang back. This is further strengthened by the combination of Dagmar and Valda glyphs, which allow for powerful initiative switches where if one player is behind they can take Dagmar for the switch, then jump on Valda to speed the rest of their figures across the lava and into their opponent's face.
The main problem with the map, however, is exactly its small footprint and abundance of lava. While it works well enough for smaller games, when you get into mid to larger games, things start to get congested. Because two of the paths are so narrow, and the other is full of lava, the play style of the map ends up very campy, as players set up outside of their start zones, taking shots and daring each other to come over. It promotes a kind of "no, you first" mentality when a lot of figures are on the board, and while there can be some skirmishes on the edges to excite things a little, it's not as promoted as I'd like in a map for general tournament use. Instead the games felt slow as players waited for a moment to run across, or as they got caught in a congested middle if both happened to try to cross the map.
I do like the map, and I think it is excellent for smaller games. Whether its smaller points, Uniques Only, Heroes Only, etc. I think it works fine. But for larger games, as well as more generic tournament formats, the map falls short for me, and for that reason I'm not voting it through as one of our general-use tournament maps.
Nomad - After six entertaining and highly strategic battles on Ruins of Rennoc, my vote is an unqualified as tournament worthy, without reservation.
Simplicity of design, but with every detail seeming to be well thought out. With each battlement, ruin, castle wall, elevation change, and molten lava hex placed in just the right spot I came to believe that this map underwent hours of testing and revision before submission. If it came together in a snap for Flash_19, then I am amazed.
Don't be tempted by Gerda, unless you are Brunak, because you will get hammered or get hot feet at the end of the round. The map did not favor one type of build over another. The map is short and conflict happens quick, but there is great side to side movement with the two roads. Ruins of Rennoc will become one of my staples for tournament maps.
Biggabullfrog - While a simple build, there’s something about this map that excites me as a player. It has a clean, polished appearance and looks like a map that would fit in with other tournament maps. Players are faced with important decision making as soon as they place their figures, with several different paths to take to try to control the board. Action flows well, and even the road pieces close to the start zones prove useful when a player needs to reroute their forces.
The map footprint is compact enough that each turn matters, and players are constantly reacting to each other, creating a fun, interactive flow to the game. It almost plays out like a chess match, where moves and counter moves are constantly being thought through. Better yet, no one army is at an advantage. The middle area is very open to ranged figures, but focusing there leaves plenty of blind spots for melee forces to sneak around the edges. The best high ground is lava, and the one single non-lava hex of high ground is right next to fortress walls that block its line of sight. You can camp Raelin and friends there, but it will be a bad position to control the board, and your opponent will be able to set up as much as they please.
The Glyph of Gerda is a good choice for this map. It’s one of the most powerful glyphs, but is in a vulnerable position and on lava, which allows for armies to contend for it easily (if they risk going for it in the first place — the risk reward factor creates a great dynamic for the game).
Overall this is just an enjoyable map. With plenty of cover for figures to duck behind, plenty of choices and risk/reward scenarios, and dynamic interaction between players. Because of the small size, congestion can become a bit of an issue in games between two large armies, but that will be a rare occurrence in most tournament games nowadays.
I vote to induct Ruins of Rennoc
Sir Heroscape - After "Chewin' on it" I think I feel confident giving this an vote.
The biggest things I love about this map are how quick the conflict begins and the advantages the map gives to both range and melee. Range can hop up early onto height yes, but they really only have the center as a sight point. If you're melee, there is plenty of high, flat ground to route along the edges. Melee also has a pretty quick means of attacking through the center even because of the fairly flat pathing that allows quick engagements. I also love that the defense glyph is on lava. It really makes for a good conflict and never really makes one army hold it for long. It's a tight map, and even early startzone blasts are limited due to the 2 hex startzone, so only 4 figures can ever be effected by a splash attack at most.
I like this map, it's got good pathing, strong gametime decisions to be made throughout and fast and furious fights. to induct.
Nomad - We performed a total of six play-tests on Durgeth Swamps. In general, using two sets of Jungle on a tournament map is something I try to avoid (there is only so much of the precious commodity to go around), but then again it only uses Swarm of the Marro for terrain, so that frees up other terrain. The central plateau only saw extensive action in two of the six battles and mostly with melee based armies. When I build the map, I switch the four 7-hex sand tiles from the start zones with the four 7-hex swamp grass tiles that have height toward the middle of the map to provide more contrast - but that is just something I prefer. I would recommend including a statement that the Hive base is used as swamp water in the build of the map. All of that being said, the map plays solid and meets all of the criteria I consider when selecting tournament maps. I think the glyph placement and slight height of the rock on the edges of the map is solid. Flow across the map and side-to-side is fair with many options. The map did not seem to favor one type of army build over another. The Ravagers really like this map. I vote for Durgeth Swamps.
Sir Heroscape - I really like this map. It's going to be an for me.
This map is open and the flow is beautiful. The height pockets on the sides really become a focus for range trying to get height attacks, but are by no means an easy position to maintain. Glyphs are well placed allowing height attacks and figures to move around them with ease. I love the quick development out of the startzone and the free moving aspects of this map. This map makes it really hard for armies to cut themselves off, and a pod army almost has to hunker in the middle, which isn't that great of a position anyway. I will say that I was crying for a little more height variation, maybe like a 1-hex or 2-hexer in the middle, but that alone is not enough to give it a downvote. It's got great aspects to it that lend itself to open and free play and I don't see many concerns on this one. I've loved the games I've played on it, and never felt like the map was detracting from gameplay.
Biggabullfrog - Swamp and jungle is a combination seen a lot, and Durgeth Swamps definitely has the aesthetic appeal of such a map. The dense jungle creates a fun story during play that makes the players feel like they are actually fighting in the middle of a dense, swampy jungle which adds a lot to the play. However, the map does get congested. Having two Jungle sets on a single Swamp map isn’t necessarily bad by itself, but on this map there is so much jungle so close together that it restricts a lot of movement. This is particularly noticeable in the areas by the glyphs where jungle, glyph and height all halt/slow movement. A lot of cover is also given to figures on high ground instead of those advancing on low ground.
As far as balance goes, the typical range vs melee game was generally close, though I found range to have a slight advantage with all of the pockets of high ground, especially the 7-hex right outside of the start zone on the right (a figure with 7 or more range can even shoot the glyph on the other side of the map from that position). Melee also struggled to engage en masse due to the congestion issues I mentioned, often letting range pick off figures to their pleasure. However, the games were often close, as I mentioned.
In more typical games (not just straight range/melee) I found the high amount of jungle next to high ground to feel more like a bug than a feature. Vital ranged heroes or, more importantly, cheerleaders were protected easily both from melee due to congestion/friendly figures, and from ranged snipers due to the jungle-covered height. This made a lot of cheerleader-based armies too strong for my taste. I also felt that most of my games just played out the same on the map. Any range would go to the right to take the 7-hex there, and melee would go left to counter the range that would inevitably go for the 7-hex on the other side. I felt that the overall strategy on the map was limited with such a strong point so close to the start zone.
Overall, this wasn’t an easy decision, but I felt the issues that I found were just too much to warrant my vote for the map. That said, it was close, and the map has many merits, so I wouldn’t be surprised by (or against) seeing it pass.
I vote to induct Durgeth Swamps
Robber - Here are my random thoughts on Durgeth Swamp, in no particular order:
- I think the map is pretty balanced.
- I really like the edges of the map. The placement of the lv 3 height, glyph, and jungle in this area is solid and makes gameplay interesting.
- I'm not sure whether or not I like the center of the map. I don't feel like there's any incentive for either player to use the area when the sides of the map are so much more desirable. I'd really like to see some more lv 3 height to break up all of the flat lv 2 terrain. Still, there are some unique aspects of this area, especially the choke points caused by the water and the jungle.
- The area just outside of the starting zone is definitely my least favorite area of the map. The pathing is mediocre and it feels like a lot of the area is just filler. I don't feel that the area offers much in terms of gameplay, and it seems like some of the tiles were placed without a lot of consideration.
- The dense jungle is awesome thematically and for melee units, but I feel like it covers too much of the map. Almost every tile is next to jungle.
My overall impression of Durgeth Swamps that it's a pretty balanced map on the cusp of tournnant-worthiness, but it's lacking in a couple important areas. Specifically, the map doesn't do a good job of offering interesting strategic options and tradeoffs to the player. Instead, many parts of the map feel flat and uniform.
Nomad - Shores of Thaelenk received one of my highest scores in the initial contest ratings. I love the back story, I love the mirror symmetry, I love the enticing views in the image and when I constructed the map . . . I was hoping the map would play like a champ.
Sadly, it did not. I ran four play-tests and all four ended in near wipe-outs. Using 450-point balanced armies, the victors had 383, 380, 383, and 240 points remaining. It seems that whoever was able to get to the snow plateau first, and capture Dagmar, wound up fighting a downhill battle the entire match.
In the four games, the lower portion of the map was played on once when Gerda was flipped over. In general, I am leery of maps that have multiple one-hex choke points. This has a few, but it didn't seem to cause issues but could be adjusted if the map gets a make-over. Also, I had to look up the build directions each time I set up armies to figure out where the start zones were positioned because they are not clearly defined. This is not a big deal at all, just something worth noting.
So, I vote for Shores of Thaelenk as a tournament map. I hope this map goes through the workshop. The map concept and story are too strong.
Biggabullfrog - I’ll say it: this map looks swell. Its build is solid (although two Shadow tiles are unused, and I’m not sure why), and the pathing flows really well. While open enough to breathe, the Line of Sight blockers are used well to keep range from running its own party.
Range does have fun with the yours/mine height, though. Being able to camp on one side of the glaciers with cover allows them to force melee to come to them in bad engagements. While melee can slow roll into mass engagements, it can be frustrating to be forced into such a campy game. Also, once they begin engaging, there are two different hills that range can be holding, and even if one is taken they can still be shot from the other.
The other problem with the map is the set initiative glyph on the high ground. Glyphs on high ground are already really good, and the Initiative glyph is no exception. Height and an almost guaranteed initiative win gives an army almost complete control over the battle. With the other glyph being random, there isn’t a good counter built into the map, and whoever takes the high ground first wins if all else is equal between armies. It’s a great map concept and great beginning, and I hope to see it revised, but this map needs some ironing first.
Biggabullfrog - This map sports a great build. It’s aesthetic and carries a great theme with it. A really solid entry, especially from a brand new mapmaker.
Unfortunately, gameplay on the map is another story. While the map looks interesting, it is way too skewed in favor of campy play. Ranged armies have tons of chokepoints to utilize to limit same-height engagements, and they can fire down on anyone who tries to grab a glyph with minimal effort. Raelin builds are especially potent on this map, as Raelin doesn’t even need to leave the start zone to provide her bonus to Deathreavers or Gladiatrons protecting the high ground, all while she is protected back there by friendly units and walls to block LoS.
It’s a really strong, aesthetic first attempt at a map. Unfortunately, this one falls short. to induct Destroyed Bridge.
Sir Heroscape - I have to say, I LOVE this map. It is easily one of my favorites thematically and aesthetically, and just rings well for me. That said, regrettably the gameplay balance of this map falls short for competitive play and I’ll vote . Casual play I will pull this out every time, but it has some issues for tournament settings.
1) strong Glyphs that show up really pull the attention to the edges too much and the edges aren’t suited well for the masses Of armies moving and routing each other. When the Glyphs are weaker, this map plays a lot more smoothly and the flow is better.
2) the center is a problem. It is very chokey in the middle and really create issues for melee trying to push their way through a heavy screen. This map is suited perfectly for a Nilf, Greenscales, Raelin army to decimate just about anyone. Rats also love the middle choke points and it was clear that even without much height range could shoot for days while clogging the middle.
3) startzones are a little too close. One thing I do love about this map is just how fast the development of this map is, but that’s also to its detriment. By having the startzones so close to the center of the map it allows Raelin to sit in the startzone and keep most of the units safe that are in combat in the middle.
I wanted this one to work cause I really do like it...but there are clearly some issues that keep it from balanced competitive play. to induct.
Nomad - Edge of the Jungle is a unique and interesting submission to ARV. I love the mirror symmetry and the use of jungle and swap water. After four play-tests it was clear that I had to vote for potential tournament play. The rock plateau did not see much action – only initially with larger squad based armies. The focus of every battle always centered around the powerful Valda glyph amidst the jungle. It felt that the map was divided into two different maps. If one army controlled Dagmar and the rock, the other army was content with the +2 move and coverage from the jungle, which eventually drew the army on the plateau down. With the +2 move, fast moving armies were able to spring to height and the deep into the opponent’s start-zone with little difficulty. And vice-versa - powerful ranged units like the Krav Maga were content taking height on the rocks and waiting for the armies to come up from the jungle to get picked off.
All four contests run on the map were lopsided, with remaining points for the victors equaling 82%, 60%, 55%, and 40% of their army’s initial points. I did like some aspects of the map, but I think some major reworking is necessary to make it playable for tournaments.
Biggabullfrog - Elswin Plateau is one of my favorite maps, so this map had me excited as it has some similarities (with swamp water shaped in a pretzel pattern). I did worry, however, that it would be much easier to just go straight for the opposing army instead of taking the high ground along the rock, since there is still plenty of height available in the swamp area.
Ultimately, that’s about what happened. Ranged figures just went for the swamp height as against melee it gave them the height they needed and against other range they could often get jungle bonuses. You can run around on the rock for a slower approach, and the initiative glyph can give a boost for a initiative-switch-strike from the hills, but doing so never seemed to give that army an advantage. Instead it just dragged out the game for a result that probably would have been the same had they gone the swamp route.
Most concerning is the level 3 grass hex covered by jungle in the swamp area. Raelin loves that spot, along with many other powerful figures. It’s easily the strongest hex on the board, as it can cover the glyph easily, the surrounding height, and is defended against attacks from the rock area as well as anywhere else. In some games all I had to do was put a strong figure there to win — even if it wasn’t a typically strong figure, its power was boosted by that spot — and that power play isn’t great for tournament maps.
Sir Heroscape - I had the chance to play on this map during the tournament. This map looks pretty freakin' awesome...BUT it's got some inherent issues with it that really don't make it conducive to tournament play. For starters, the power glyph on only one side is a real killer. If it were a weaker glyph than it wouldn't matter so much, but since it is Wannock, that clearly focuses the conflict more to that side. The glyph is also on pretty significant height, which allows a ranged unit to sit on it and get attacks down on units charging the hill. Another of my concerns was the ability for dragons to perch on the non-glyph hill and decimate oncoming units. While those units can engage the position within 2 turns from the startzone...a dragon build will relish the opportunity to sit on the mountain and rain hell on the opponent. this map also lends itself to give advantage to fast range. I had a Rats/Krav army and I ROCKED my opponent. I didn't even need my rat screen. I took my Krav up the Wannock side hill and rained down 3 attacks of 4 the whole game and ripping into his army. Range can so easily take the hills and thrash any type of melee trying to make their way up.
At the end of the day this map is thematic and cool, but just doesn't meet the competitive standard we're looking for for tournament maps. to induct
Robber - I think that Barrenspur: Tomb of Migol is one of the best semi-asymmetric maps that I've played on in a while. It's no small feat to balance maps like these, and NecroBlade did an exemplary job.
Aesthetically, this map is awesome, and it fits the contest theme really well. The paths and the options available to each player are pretty much identical, even though the map is not symmetric. Each starting zone has equal access to glyphs, height, and other tactically important areas on the map, in the same number of turns as the other.
I didn't experience the hill unbalance that Sir Heroscape described in his review. From his description, I think it's possible that he placed the glyphs on the wrong hills during playtesting. The wound glyph is only on lv 2 and the highest location on that side of the map is lv 5. The wound glyph also prevented range from camping on the other, taller hill, which had a lot of tiles on lv 5 as well as some on lv 6.
My biggest complaint is that there are a lot of the choke points right out of the starting zone. Most of them aren't major issues, but the ones between the edge of the map and the 3-hex rock outcropping / 4-hex tree were problematic during playtesting. Other than that, it's very fun to play on and I felt that it's sufficiently balanced for a tournament setting. to induct
Nomad - I really love the look, feel, theme, and backstory of this map. I also love that it is asymmetrical, and the steps of shadow tiles up the tall side of the map is cool. I eagerly set up the map wanting so badly for it to meet the tournament-worthy standard. After seven playtests with various army builds, I just could not give it a passing grade, although with some minor tweaks perhaps it could. Basically, the issue boiled down to the fact that successful armies (usually ranged) would ignore the taller side of the map and go for the side with the Wannock glyph. Whoever secured the height on the shorter side of the map won. If fact, in all but one of the battles, both armies went straight for the Wannock side. In the one battle where the player split his forces and tried to take the taller side and contend for the shorter side, they were easily decimated. Like Sir Heroscape noted, quicker ranged armies had a distinct advantage. My three opponents on the map had the same opinions – it looked cool, but they didn’t really want to see it in a tournament setting. Perhaps all that is needed is a different combination of glyphs – replacing the treasure glyph with a decent power glyph? I did notice that the road wall placement in the build directions was not possible. I did not notice issues with chokepoints on the map.
Sadly, to Barrenspur. I would love to see some modifications and resubmission through the workshop thread.
Sir Heroscape - I actually really like this map for the most part...but there are two things that will cause me to it.
1) Though not entirely necessary for competitive play, the outside road seems kind of wasted. It's a bit too much of a diversion and for most developing armies trying to get height and position, they will just cut across the top rather than using it on the edge. IT's a little too long and out of the way to make the extra movement worth it.
2) The biggest thing for me is the beautiful 3-hex camping spot near the center. Dragons can reach this on Turn 1, backed by Greenscales or simply on their own, and hold the position almost impenetrably. Since there is little same-level opportunities for attack (let alone any height on that position), than it's going to be an uphill battle for any army vs. a dragon build. While it's true there are a million different army builds that could play on this map...competitive play does frequently involve strong Dragon builds, and if I had a dragon build, I'd exploit that flaw to the fullest and camp all day on that 3-hex spot. It's also important to note that for a competitive dragon like Nilfheim, he can be on that spot and attack both glyphs if need be. So not only hold the height, but also knock off opponents on the glyph.
These aren't big enough problems to warrant never playing on this map, (in fact this makes for great casual games) but I do think it's not there yet for a tournament table. for me.
Nomad - Five playtests - two thrashings, two that were down-to-the-wire, and one that was in-between. The roads to the sides were a kind of out of the way . . . and were really only used when the middle got clogged and flanking attacks were needed or when a melee attack starting from the road in front of the start zone on an enemy holding a glyph was needed. It might make for a slightly better map if those roads to the sides were a bit shorter. I think some rearranging of a few terrain pieces would be an improvement.
Strategic movement and positioning were used in all the battles. I did not run into the issues around the three-hex spots in the middle of the map. Of course, getting to those spots is the foremost strategy even before pursuing glyphs.
I will be honest, I was not super excited about this map in the initial evaluating to narrow the field to ten maps. Some BoV maps that use the same terrain that are similar include Highways and Dieways, Road Rampage, Flash Fire, and Badru Valley. But, after playtesting, I would rank Wooded Crossroads 3rd or 4th in comparison.
Wooded Crossroads is a good map and I wouldn’t be disappointed to see it on a table in a tournament. Therefore, I vote for Wooded Crossroads, even though there was much internal debate. Others who played the map in my group thought it was also decent and fair. I would say that a few tweaks would improve this map, which might be my preference, but as is . . . it works.
Biggabullfrog - I really like the look and feel of this map. Fighting over crossroads in a forest has been one of my favorite map types since I first got into the game, and Wooded Crossroads… captures that very well. There are many choices to made with development and map control, and the many paths keep the map from getting too choked up. The many ups and downs of the map do slow down the action, however, which further hurts with the large size of the map.
The glyphs are placed well on the map, reached easily from both sides and available for use while still susceptible to counterattack. The map also features a lot of mounds for figures to climb on, which means ranged figures will almost always have easy height advantage on figures they’re shooting. The trees help to mitigate that, though I do feel that they could be better used to block shooting lanes from these high points. The road helps figures to engage the range on these mounds too, which is an excellent feature to help balance the matchup. But with so many different mounds, there always seems to be one more place where range will run to get height, and an army with a lot of long range units can lead shorter range units around the map by jumping from spot to spot, especially with a lot of the mounds close to the start zone.
In the end I simply felt that the map size mixed with the many places for ranged units to pop up resulted in a map imbalance. The road and trees are useful in helping fight against that, but not quite enough as is, and many matchups were just too uphill. However the map is close and I feel that some work could improve it to become an excellent tournament map and.
Robber - Valledon Fortress was one of my favorite maps in the Landscapes of Valhalla contest. It has a ton of potential and I love a lot of the unique things that AntMarchingGroves did. The use of the castle entrance is awesome and super thematic. Balance-wise, I have a couple problems that should be easy to address.
- My biggest issue is with the tiles just outside of the southern part of the starting zones. One of the ice tiles is a huge choke point. I would replace the three ice tiles in the area with tiles that are not on level 0, and move the one-hex glacier. I think that the castle tiles could also be rearranged slightly in order to make movement out of the starting zone easier.
- My next biggest issue is the three wall tiles and the two ice tiles that are on lv 3 near the center of the map. They seem in the way, and there are definitely better uses for this prime real-estate on the map. I think this should be replaced with height in order to encourage units to move towards the center. Currently, there are only 5 tiles of lv 3 height that are in the center of the map, and 10 tiles of lv 3 height that are "his-and-hers".
These were the only dealbreakers for me. I really want to see this map revised, and then I would be super excited to vote for it. Until then, I have to give it a .
Nomad - After building Valledon Fortress, a couple of points of potential problems popped that made me wonder how well in could withstand tight scrutiny as tournament-worthy: 1) the single-hex row of ice between the central castle wall and the glacier, I generally have seen that these choke points create problems, and, 2) the potential difficulty of getting out of the start-zone to height on the snow-side of the map.
Four play-tests seemed to answer those questions, but raised a third.
1) The potential choke-point between the wall and the glacier became a benefit rather than a hindrance. The path is not required to access your opponent or strategic points on the map, and is usually avoided as better routes exist. The hexes ended up being a place to take refuge for melee armies as they approached the central rock hexes with height, or the glyph and height on the snow side of the map.
2) In the play-tests, we found that it was equally easy to access the height from the start-zone on either side of the castle walls before the opponent could scamper up the snow and create issues. The 3-hex snow on height became a strategic place to occupy to protect units coming out of the start zone on that side of the map and created interesting strategic choices – take the height, or forge ahead toward the glyph and my opponent?
3) The third area of concern became the central 3-hex rock height in the middle of the map. We tried stacking it with high-defense ranged units to see if issues would surface, but although in each battle it seemed like it would initially prove tough to overcome, melee armies were ultimately able to break through and eventually win the battle.
A couple of the battles were so evenly matched and close on this map that they took eight and then eleven rounds to win playing with 450-point armies. The other two were much quicker, but not overly lopsided.
I like the concept, I like the look, it is unique, the map played well, and my initial concerns were overcome. I do believe that the map could be improved with a few tweaks, perhaps making this map very, very good, but not enough to sway my opinion. As is, the map is well-done and could be included in tournament settings.
I vote as tournament worthy for Valledonn Fortress.
Sir Heroscape - I'm going to go ahead and vote this one .
I do agree there are a couple choke points, but I'm not seeing them as overly imbalanced. I like how there are multiple ways to route an opponent by running around walls or ice and the road makes lateral movement very easy. I kinda wish there were a little more height spattered throughout, as it seems a little flat, but there's enough that those positions become very heavily contested and really draw in the conflict. I think development out of the startzone was smooth and natural and I think there are good angles that can be used to hide behind castle to leap on range figures trying to camp. I don't see any major issues with it at the moment, and I think it's worthy of a spot in our selection. It was a fun map to play on.
Biggabullfrog - This has been the hardest map to vote on in my history as a judge (which means buckle up for a long review). Its beautiful aesthetics and strong theme made me excited to play on it when it came into the competition. It has great table presence and I honestly thought it would be an easy up vote, but it does (like all other maps) come with its flaws.
Let’s go over strong points first. Like I said, it’s a beautiful and thematic build, utilizing terrain to create a battlefield where figures skirmish among castle ruins and the hints of glaciers. Much of the battlefield consists of level 2 height in the middle, but line of sight blockers are used well to keep figures who climb to that level from dominating incoming figures. The road makes it easy for figures to run around into engagements, especially when enemies are on level 3. While there is yours/mine height, the easy pathing allows figures to compensate for that by quickly engaging enemies. It’s an easy map to play, meaning you can play any army on it and not feel like the map is defeating your army outright (and yes, there are more challenging maps that are good, but there’s a range of easy to difficult maps to play on, and this one falls in a good easy-to-learn area).
That said, this map is almost too easy for ranged armies. The name of the game is height, more so than a lot of maps, and the yours/mine height promotes that. While the easy pathing of the map counteracts that for the most part, the high ground in the snow area of the map is surrounded by chokepoints, making it difficult for figures to reach the height and making it difficult to reach the ground en masse. It should be noted, though, that melee armies can group up in the open area, hiding behind the walls, and then engage through there, but doing so gives the other army the snow area and often the glyph in that area as well, and depending on how random glyphs work out, that can push the range advantage even more (even if it’s just by denying that glyph to melee). Raelin can also hide behind the high ground in that area, covering both the glyph and the high ground and making it further difficult to assault. Rats/Gladiatrons/other defenders can also easily defend that area, sealing it off.
I will note that this pocket of defendable high ground isn’t as bad as it may sound. It’s cut off enough that if a player goes for it, their reinforcements will be vulnerable and easily killed. If a player has few enough pieces to fit them all in that area, then it becomes a power play for the win, but otherwise it can be countered. The other glyph on the map can also play into this, especially if it ends up being Wannok, but that isn’t consistent enough to rely on. The main problem I have with that pocket is that it dictates a lot of games, and while an easy-to-play map isn’t terrible, some armies just autopilot to the win here. I often found that if I had the range advantage, my strategy always involved controlling that area (sometimes kiting back into it), and that doing so led to a big advantage throughout the game. When a screen gets in there it also makes a game very grindy, which often happens with screens, but it was especially so here.
A couple more minor notes of concern I had whenever playing the map: Dragons are very strong on the map (though that won’t rule out a map alone because that’s a small part of units). There is also a lot of unused terrain when building the map, which again won’t rule out a map on its own, but as a tournament director it was very noticeable that the map doesn’t include several glaciers, most of the sand hexes in RotV, and a lot of snow/ice. A very minor note, since if a map doesn’t need the terrain to be good, then no sweat, which was much the case here, but worth mentioning.
In the end, I vote to induct Valledon Fortress. It’s just past the spot of where I would recommend for competitive play. Tournament maps usually promote plays and counter plays, and the counter plays here just aren't solid enough. I do think it can easily pass, however, with a couple simple modifications. One would be using predetermined glyphs: if the one on the rock was Wannok and the ice one was something that wouldn’t benefit turtling armies (maybe move) then that alone would help combat the main issue with the map. It’s also worth considering opening the one-hex pathway by the glacier by simply moving the wall down one hex, allowing melee to get more engagements through there. I hope to see the map again, as I would happily upvote it.
Biggabullfrog - Despite only using a small variety of terrain (swamp and road), this map is one of my pet favorites as far as looks go. It’s likely just a me thing, but the look of raised roadways over swamp with the remaining columns of some civilization looks really neat and makes for an exciting map to play through. The road also allows you to run wherever you want to be quickly, making action that consists of fast skirmishes.
Initially, my primary concern was the power that ranged armies (especially podding/turtling armies) would have by taking the high ground in the center. Only a few columns are utilized as Line of Sight blockers which leaves the map pretty open to long-range sniping (I did wish more LoS blockers were used). The glyphs in particular are vulnerable to range in the center, which means that taking and holding them can be a chore. However, I did find the fight to be a lot more balanced than I expected. Running to the middle will often leave your forward forces exposed, and opponent figures can use the road to engage those figures and cut them off from reinforcements. This is especially dangerous if you try to move a cheerleader to the middle — a wrong move can result in losing that cheerleader fast, creating an interesting risk/reward dynamic to the map.
Road on the high ground, while aesthetic here, is also a worrying factor, as it allows range to shoot from anywhere on the map they want, and allows screening units (curse you, Rats!) to run in and tie down figures while limiting same-height (not to mention higher) attacks back on them. However, I did find that the amount of road on this map allows for armies to utilize flanking strategies effectively, which lets an army that may struggle against Rats/Range to run around them, cut off reinforcements, take glyphs while they’re distracted, and generally take them toe-to-toe. The single-hex roadways does mean that it’s easy to block off figures with a screen, but being able to avoid those figures (or spread them out if they’re trying to turtle in Raelin’s aura) provides enough counter play that my games felt interactive and dynamic. It made games exciting in a way that isn’t usually seen with competitive maps.
This map is very different from most tournament maps that are seen. It’s open, consists of height that is mostly road with only a couple of height pockets in the middle, and has a lot of easily-congested single-hex roadways. At the same time, it sports enough roadways for action to be fast-paced, allows armies to keep up with each other by routing, flanking, and capturing advanced figures, and taking glyphs becomes a more strategic decision than on most maps. The narrow roadways makes games with large armies seem to be easily congested, but the rings of road mean figures can engage on multiple points, and often discourages turtling. This map is very close for me, right on the edge of the point between an up and a down vote, as there are a lot of points for and against it, and I won’t be surprised if the other judges vote up or down on it. Usually I downvote maps like this, as I often feel that the map shouldn’t have me questioning its competitive value, but I’m convinced here. While unorthodox for the usual competitive map pool, I felt that its quirks were well-used and made for balanced, dynamic play that will feel fresh to players.
I vote to induct Grounds of Ashra
Nomad - I was enjoyably surprised by Grounds of Ashra. This map is much more pleasing to the eye than the image reveals and promotes a different style of play. Once built and before armies are placed in their start zones, the mind starts whirling through various potential strategies. Movement across the map flows fluidly without any major chokepoints. Although I feared that the height in the middle of the map would encourage ranged armies to pod-up and fire away, I found that that region is easily approached from numerous directions and melee armies were quite able to prevent that strategy. The battles were fast paced with quick flanking attacks which utilized all areas of the map. After five playtests in a tournament setting, all who played on this map indicated that it was fair, fun, promoted aggressive engagement, and would be eager to play on it again. I vote to include this map as tournament worthy in the ARV canon.
Sir Heroscape - This map surprised me. I'll be honest it wasn't my favorite, but there weren't too many things that kept me from voting this down. The road is incredibly helpful and well-placed for armies, especially melee, and there really are no places for range to hide. The road moves fast enough to route, and you can always jump down into the swamp just to engage a position on the road or reposition. The single hexes in the middle are great raelin perches for a little while, but I usually lost Raelin due to the fact that there were multiple ways to reach her and it actually took a little bit to set up a screen for that spot. I also liked how she could only really see left and right and the big tree kept her from seeing units advancing further down the path. Games on this were fun, well-played and really no concern. I see this as a good map that people will enjoy playing in tournaments.
Sir Heroscape - Part of me wants to stop the tradition of the winning ARV map not becoming officially sanctioned...but this map does have some problems and I'm going to have to it.
1) no LOS blockers. This is a major problem for me. With as high, long, terrainy and lava strewn as it is, adding on lack of LOS blockers really takes away from the competitiveness of this map for me. Melee needs help, and having nothing to hide behind really becomes a detriment for a melee developing army.
2) Terrainy. This map becomes very difficult for melee to develop. Even with 6 squads of Death Chasers starting 5 spaces out of the startzone I was still routed by my opponents marro warriors who were able to pick off half of my DC's before I finally felled them. By that point, I was overextended, out of position and hurting from having lost half my forces. Imagine what Krav, 4th Mass or some other really strong range units could do here. Not only do you have to climb up levels, but once you get to the level 4 lava on one side, you're forced to dip back down to level 3 and then met with another level 4 on the other side. It's subtle, and at a glance you can't really see how it can be exploited, but believe me, when you can't engage a ranged unit while they're ripping through half of your army, you begin to see where the issues present themselves. The center is also an issue. The molten lava prevents (not a lot, but enough) movement through the center. You not only have to skirt around it, but then you have to climb through the choppy center. It's not ideal and all along the way you have to worry about not ending turn 3 on lava which means you have to position your figures down elevation as you develop, thus keeping them from developing over the terrain. It's really a very tough matchup for melee vs. range, and I just can't see this one passing...it was very frustrating to play on.
3) Long. This map isn't actually super long...but when combined with the amount of elevation an army has to scale throughout the map, this becomes a very long and arduous journey for a melee army to develop properly through the map.
BiggaBullfrog - Obsidian Wastes sports a pretty good build. It does a good job utilizing the Marvel set which I always enjoy, and the theme is cool. The lava is used pretty well for the most part, and the overall distribution and flow of the high points is pretty good too.
There are issues with the map, though. The map is very large with a lot of high ground to cover - you have to climb at least two levels to get to the main level of the map and to cross it, and that slows down melee a ton. If you want to cross through the middle then there are two more levels to climb. It doesn't help that the map is wide open, which can't be avoided when your only LoS blockers available are the two ruins. (Admittedly the Warehouse could be shoehorned in there, but not without significant changes). The lava, while used pretty well, doesn't do enough to mitigate range's prowess on the map. There are still plenty of places to sit on height to shoot advancing melee troops, especially if you take lava ground to sweep off the first few troops and then camp on the non-lava high ground.
I also feel that the glyphs are in too powerful of positions. They're right by some powerful non-lava high ground spots, and taking one of those areas gives you just about complete command over that flank of the map.
In the end, the map seems to have an excess of terrain. I think if the second level were removed completely and the start zones were brought in a bit then that would be a great start to helping it. It seems good and I think it can make it there, but in its current state it's too much of a chore to try to move through the map to be much fun, and camping armies get too much of a boon from that.
I vote to inducting Obsidian Wastes. Looks like our tradition of disapproving the competition winner still stands strong.
Sir Heroscape - I'm going to go out on a limb here and give this a tentative
I'm not married to that vote, but I do want to state my stance because I'm conflicted but willing to pass this one.
I think the obvious major issue here is that the Startzone is relatively closed off and has height relative to the lower elevation immediately outside. With that said, the highest height is level with the road and therefore does not present an extreme advantage to armies that wait. BUT ONLY because of the easily accessible height in the center and shadow. What I really like about this map is 1) it's theme and 2) it's flow - the whole map is used, it's fun and few choke points. After many playtests I've been surprised to find that the startzones are actually quite a poor choice to get stuck in. The height is accessible enough in the center and well enough defended that the opposing player is within most ranged units attacks unless they are in their mid or back startzone. But that in and of itself may be a concern if the center height is too easy to access and defend because then it would just depend on the fastest units...so I'm curious to hear about others' experiences. So far, it the map hasn't proven to be broken. I like the placement of the glyphs so that it keeps you trying to get a little out of position to grab the bonus, and the treasure glyphs are in a spot that developing heroes can grab it on the way.
My main qualms are still 1) Is the center too strong for fast moving units who can reach height first 2) can a podding army take the advantage over their opponent within their own startzone and 3) Are the battlements too restricting. #3 I just added because I also noticed during play that my first and even second waves of units could climb over the battlements well enough to develop throughout the map, but the units farther back I had to try and funnel onto the road. At times this made them easy pickings for opponents controlling height, and other times it allowed them to rush up and engage. Either way...I wonder if taking out just 1 or 2 battlements on each side would open up the startzone enough to allow more free moving development.
So, like I said...I like it a lot. I have some concerns...but I'm not sure how they stand compared to your experiences and whether or not they need to be addressed by slightly adjusting the map or not. So far, I haven't had terribly imbalanced or broken games, so for now I'll give it an and see what ya'll have to say about it.
Biggabulffrog - Dust Bowl is a really really cool looking map. One of the best aspects of it is what I call the “hype” factor, which is high before, during, and after playing on it. All in all it just has a lot of fun going on for it.
This uses terrain from 1 RotV, 1 BftU, and 1 FotA. That’s a lot of terrain available, and HS2010 does a good job of utilizing it, though there are just a few more pieces left over than I would like. That’s more of a personal thing, though. Overall the LoS blockers and terrain like Shadow and Road are used well, although since the road is so wide it’s usually easier to run through the high ground than take the detour. The pathing works overall - it’s tight and slow at first, but opens up. It does take a lot to develop armies, though. Especially if you want to take the flanks.
The balance on this map is pretty solid. The glyphs are balanced out. There’s a your-side-my-side Treasure Glyph situation, but you have to take a disadvantage to get one by taking low ground. The main balance issue has to do with the set up of the high ground - it’s easier to get an advantage when going to your left than the right. The high ground is more abundant and easier to take. This turns into a your-hill-my-hill situation, and means melee armies have to extend to keep range from entrenching there.
Dust Bowl admittedly isn’t the most strategically intriguing map, but the levels of hype can overshadow that. There are some frustration points, though. For one, double-spaced figures can struggle with all the uneven ground, and with all the battlements it can be tough for them to take the road in a couple points. The amount of battlements can also make climbing and movement difficult. They’re a blessing for the LoS blocking they provide, but it can be a headache for melee to try to climb to an advantage point with all the battlements in the way. It can also be tough for some armies to attack the hill on their right, due to the 4-level barrier that keeps small figures and some medium figures from being able to engage figures on the hill.
4th and Trons also enjoy this map. Pockets of high ground and an easily-defended start zone are great for 4th, and the Trons love all the bumpy high ground where Gladiatrons can engage figures while Blasts shoot away while Raelin sits nearby. Those two are easily the best armies on this map.
I really like this map, and it’s been really difficult for me to reach a decision on which way to vote on it. It’s especially tough because no one thing that I dislike is enough to force a downvote alone. But things like the difficulty of pathing and frustration that the battlements can pose, as well as the obvious advantage of just sending figures to camp on the high ground on the right, make it difficult for me to want to upvote it as well. The dominance of Trons and 4th is also a bit too much to overlook. This map is really really close for me, but in the end it’s just missing that competitive level. I’d love to see it tweaked, but for now I vote to Dust Bowl.
Robber - It's not often that you find a map this unique and thematic. Dust Bowl was one of my absolute favorites from the contest because of its creativity. I've gone back and forth on the map's tournament worthiness multiple times, and it's not easily that I vote
My two major issues with the map are movement and height placement. Both of these have been pretty much covered by previous reviews, so I'll keep it short:
Movement:
- The battlements are very restrictive, especially the ones by the starting zone. I don't like the bottleneck effect that it creates.
- Units to the back of the starting zone have difficulty leaving
Height:
- The highest points on the map are easier to access from the left than from the right
- The map has a lot of height variation, making it more difficult for melee and double-spaced figures to traverse the map
These are some of my suggestions for improving the map:
- Remove the battlements by the starting zone. Rather than having the starting zone on levels 2 and 3, place it on levels 1 and 2.
- Lower the castle top pieces from level 3 to level 2, and the two rock hexes from level 4 to level 3.
- To compensate for the now very flat area by the starting zone, make the level 1 sand area more interesting. I felt that this are is the least used during the games. Units travel through it to leave the starting zone and pick up the treasure glyph, but not much fighting occurs. I'm not sure what material you have left over, but consider adding some height or obstacles.
- Lighten up on the battlements near the highest points of the map
- Move the highest points of the map so that they are evenly spaced on the right and left approaches
- Make sure that after these modifications are made, other important landmarks also have good pathing and spacing
I've made a lot of criticisms, so I just wanted to reiterate how awesome I think this map is. I really hope the map can reach it's fullest potential and be accepted in the future!
Sir Heroscape - After MANY playtests on this map...I have to finally give it a
I agree with Tiranx that the one obvious breaking point is that Raelin can hold the highest spot and cover both glyphs while also being able to have a HUGE LoS Blocker to cover any direct shots from equal ground. That alone is game-breaking for me. Other aspects I didn't particularly like either was the road and startzone/development. The Road in my opinion was a little cumbersome and didn't provide the kind of movement for my troops I'd normally like. It helped a little bit getting a few units out of the startzone, but didn't sustain a very strong flow of development. The other aspect was the startzone. It has no major issues, it's just that all my games seemed to lag because of how it took longer development out of the startzone with all the elevation and especially for units on the 6 hexes of land who have to go down into the swamp and then back out. for 6-move figures this map develops just fine, but 5 move figures struggle to develop smoothly after the initial frontline. I think some minor adjustments could be made to help development out of the startzone, but as for required changes, Leaf_it is going to need to find a way to keep Raelin away from that perfect perch for this to be a tournament worthy map.
Tiranx - I was excited for this map because of how the trees created such a unique LoS blocker. However, I have vote this map. Here is why...
Raelin by herself really breaks this map. She can fly to the highest point of the map turn one. In that position, her aura can effectively cover both glyphs at the same time. It is mitigated a little by there being random glyphs, but if one of those glyphs happened to be the defense +1 it would be game over.
A dragon could just as easily abuse that same strategy. I have a few ideas how to mitigate those problems, but I will leave that for the Workshop if it goes that direction.
Biggabullfrog - I was going to do some playtests on this one this week, but you guys beat me to it. But you found basically what I felt would be wrong with the map. I've tinkered with this kind of map before, and the dice fest that it turns into on either side of the central obstacle is just a huge turn off even without Raelin camping. Other pods and "come at me armies" just rock it as well with supreme control over all the important parts of the map.
Biggabullfrog - On the whole, Ticallan Tower is a solid map. It makes good use of the SotM and FotA sets to make a good sized map, and while the pathing/flow of it can feel a little awkward at times (especially when getting out of the start zone), it doesn’t get congested. Plus it has impressive aesthetics and implements Jungle pieces as well as the central tower well. It is a little long and I wish it was just one or two hexes shorter to let armies get to each other more easily, but that’s a minor nitpick.
The balance of the map itself is good. It seems a little better to try to develop units to the right because the pathing is more open, but if you invest to the left you can get some really strong holds as well. I was concerned about the Glyphs. The positioning is good to spread out the action, but because they’re so vulnerable they need to be on the stronger side or units won’t go for them. This is especially true in Melee v Range setups. Personally I preferred a pool of Move, Initiative, and Defense glyphs were best - when I tested with other glyphs common in tournament use, they just weren’t good enough to warrant attention.
This map has a lot going for it as far as excitement goes. It looks exciting and gets players wanting to play on it. In game there are a few points that can get frustrating, such as Raelin being able to shut down a whole half of the map, but on the whole that’s unavoidable, and clever play can mitigate those frustration points.
The gameplay here is solid, too. While it can seem that powerhouse armies like Rats Raelin Range, 4th, and ’Trons can dominate on this map, opposing armies can use the tower to their advantage to get close and flank the opponent, focusing more on strategy than just chucking dice. I can nitpick that the gameplay isn’t the most dynamic I’ve seen, and it’s limited somewhat by its low height variance, but it is solid and capitalizes on strategy, which is good.
Overall a solid map with solid gameplay pushing solid strategy, I vote to induct Ticallan Tower.
Nomad - We got in a total of four play tests on Ticallan Tower with units ranging from M-43s and Mariedians, Shades of Bleakwoode, MacDirks and bonders, Heavy Gruts and Bonders, a dragon and Krav. And I played a bunch of Water Elementals with Zaiken (a NWHC figure who bonds multiple WEs). The WEs love this map! I am all for maps that help Water Elementals (they still lost, but it was fun for a while).
The map is fairly flat, but with three levels of height. It can play fast side-to-side on the road. The map was fair and balanced to all eight of the armies we tested. No singular unit type seemed to have an advantage. The glyphs are well placed.
Would I set this map up at one of my tournaments and be confident that I wouldn't hear grumbling about unfairness in regards to the map for the players? Yes.
Nomad votes
Robber - My initial opinion of Ticallan Tower before building it was that it was a bit flat and uninteresting. However, it's grown on me a lot since I started playtesting it.
Overall, my biggest complaint is the lack of height above level 2. Given the available terrain, there's not much that could have been done about this, but I feel that even a couple tiles on level 3 would make the map more interesting. That being said, the map is definitely well designed to make up for this. There is a surprising amount of height variation due to the placement of the water and swamp water tiles. Even though there are no highly desirable places to grab height on the map, each player is still incentivised to move towards the middle due to the glyphs and some of the level two height.
I really like the dynamic created by the castle tiles that stretch across the map, and in particular, the castle tiles on level two. I've got a couple concerns with the placement of the battlements, but nothing too major. Overall, the map feels balanced and tournament worthy.
Sir Heroscape - I've played multiple games on this map and have decided to it.
It's been actually a really fun map to play on, and it's not so terribly high that you can't move through it quickly. In fact, you can move through it with your army deceptively fast. Couple things bring it down:
1) All the battles I played were completely in the center of the map and on the banks of the river. The entire map was rarely used because the low ground swamp is so - relatively - flat that you can develop your army really fast across the center you would almost rather give up the height in order to gain map control as well as glyph control. Because the focus is so central, you force your opponent to counter with similar tactics in order to get in attacks, therefore leaving the outside of the map basically untouched. A balanced map should not play out like that.
2) the embankments are an issue against range. this was an initial worry for many of us, and it is proved here. While faster moving squads may have an easier time of it, they still suffer from the difficulty of reaching ranged figures just a few hexes up the embankment. The height is just enough that a strategic and skilled player can stay relatively untouched while at the same time ranging their opponent to pieces. the initial movement to the other side is very quick, but it's a bit of a deathtrap trying to get out to reach an opponents figures. I love this for casual play, it's a fun map...but doesn't belong on a tournament table the way it's designed currently.
Biggabullfrog - When I first set out to play on this map, I thought it was going to be a quick and easy down vote. It's so large with such a height difference between the middle and the sides, I was ready to just play a few games with 4th vs melee to break the map and be done.
My games, however, were shockingly close. Melee was doing really well, and even winning some games. So I switched tactics, figuring a Rat Raelin Range Pod could easily claim a bank and hold it. And that worked mostly, but melee armies were still doing really well at contesting the ground, and proving the map to be much more balanced than I thought. What's more, where I thought this map would be a boring camp-fest, I found it to be really fun, making for exciting games with interesting strategy and action. I found myself really impressed with the map. Tankyteemo did a good job of balancing the strong high ground by limiting how many figures can start on each side of the map; going left is a better move and has better defensive positions, but you can't fit as many figures on that side. Going right is easier due to the amount of figures you can start on that side and the easier elevation, but is balanced by the ground being relatively lower than on your opponent's side.
Something still wasn't sitting right, though. Something felt off, and I kept testing to find what it was. In the end, I found a couple problems with the map.
The middle is terribly open. The LoS blockers do a great job of keeping start zones safe, but figures in the middle, or figures that need to cross the river to get to range on the other side, are out in the open with nothing to hinder Ranged figures from picking them off.
The riverbanks are really steep. Climbing out is a pain, and there's no way to speed it up. If there was a piece of road connecting down into the river or just easier elevation changes, that would make it easier to get up and out to attack other figures.
Wannok isn't good enough on this map, in my experience. It's position is too weak. You usually want to use Wannok to pull camping figures off of their perches by doing damage to them over time. But if Wannok is in a place where ranged figures can easily shoot it from height (which they definitely can on this map), then ranged armies are more than happy to let you take the glyph because you're both giving up hill control and giving them an easy kill anyway. In order to justify holding the glyph on this map, I think it needs to be something stronger like Gerda or Astrid that will help in fighting uphill to take the banks.
While I'm at it, I'm not a huge fan of how this map uses RotV, but uses less than half of those hexes in the map. The build is good, but if it could be reworked with BftU or MtCB, or something else, I think it would better the build. But that is a very minor note comparatively.
So while the more defensive ranged armies I was playing weren't over performing on this map (they were definitely strong, but didn't feel unbeatable (oh, and due to the steep banks, Blasts/Glads still rock this map)), aggressive ranged units (mainly cleanup units) shine too brightly. They can attack figures in the open easily and use elevation changes to their advantage to keep from being attacked. I did really enjoy the map though, and where I began thinking I would down vote it quickly, I ended wanting to up vote it. As is currently, though, I feel that it's just a little too easy for ranged units to get too much value on it.
It's really, really close. But as-is, I vote to inducting Ruins by the River of Vitality.
Sir Heroscape - This is a hard one for me to vote on cause I actually really like it. It surprising flows well, and the games I've played on it have been very fun. It was not as broken as I originally thought, and I'm not sure it's BROKEN yet, but I'm definitely sensing it needs some work. There are things about it that don't necessarily break it for me right now, but I think just need some adjusting. First off, the whole right of the map is very narrow. The lava river really cuts off movement and development out of the startzone, as well as the jungle bush. There is literally 1 hex to move through the right of the map and that causes a lot of issues because you're also forcing the player to sit units on lava over there as well, which doesn't activate till the end of the round, but it still deters them from wanting to develop units that way. The rest of the map actually develops really fast and easy but that was definitely an issue. Aside from that, the lava also acts as a natural barrier with which ranged units can sit behind and pot shot other units while running away. This usually happens more late game, but can still be a problem. I honestly think the easy fix here is taking out one of the middle lava hexes in that river and replacing it with a swamp water hex. The lava terrain on this map is unique. Instead of on height, it is on the low ground. I actually like it because it really changes the way you traditionally play with lava. Now you play it like it really is supposed to me, hiding on height while it heats up below you. You run really fast across it to jump up onto a safer spot. I kinda like that, but I can see the issues with it as well. It gives range an advantage if they can get set up because they can force melee to take engagements below them AND while they are on lava...that's not good in my opinion. WITH THAT SAID, that actually didn't happen too often during my games, and I think that was because the map flows fast enough that melee do have a chance to engage range before they get too established. But, there is the issue of the center. I think it's okay...but not great. It's a little congested and is especially wonky with the lava next to the 3hex height. I don't like that and I can see that being a really good campy spot for the ranged units that get there first and can hold it. So while I like this map and overall it's pretty good, I think there are just a few things that need to be altered or worked on before it's ready for tournament tables. for me
Biggabullfrog - I'm happy to say that this map surprised me in a lot of good ways. Looking at it before testing, I was thinking that it would just be a range fest of terrible proportions, due to the lava on the low ground and jungle on the high ground, and that melee wouldn't stand any chance on it at all.
The map works a lot better than I was expecting though. Melee had a decent time against most ranged armies, and the high ground, for the most part, isn't terrible to contend. However, as usual, the main gameplay issues came from the super competitive armies.
With a 4th horde, you can get your men on the highest ground in two turns and shoot for days, doing enough damage to your opponent's army that by the time they take you off that center rock 3-hex, you'll win any battle of attrition for the rest of the game. Rats and Gladiatrons are also excellent at screening key points to make it so if your opponent wants to make good attacks on you then they have to stand on the lava and take extra damage. Since a lot of ranged figures have a really easy time of shooting the glyphs, it makes these camping strategies that much stronger, and you can usually keep Raelin in your start zone without moving her if you just focus on those defense areas by the lava.
It's a lot more fun than I was expecting, and I would play casual games on this map for sure. But competitively, it's not there. The jungle doesn't help advancing units enough - it only helps if you're already on high ground. The lava helps instead of hinders camping armies. And the pathing, while not terrible, is just off enough that it doesn't help developing melee enough. But it sure is beautiful and fun, and a lot closer to great than I expected. I'd really like to see it reworked. But for now;
Sir Heroscape - Yeah after many many play tests on this map I’m going to it. I want so badly for us to upvote a map and get them passed, but it I think there’s value in keeping a high standard and being picky because we want these maps to be considered competitive enough for solid tournament play. This one “feels” balanced for the most part but each time I play it I keep getting a “bad taste in my mouth” and I’m not sure why. But after a lot of playing and some careful scrutiny I think I have decided why this map is getting a downvote from me.
The main thing for me is flow. It’s subtle and deceptive but this map creates some flow issues. The majority of movement and conflict is on the roads, and that can be an issue on this map when the roads are narrow and at certain points can be clogged up...especially down near the 4-hex tree...it’s especially a nightmare down there at times. Another thing is the lava. I really like lava as a height option to discourage camping, but I also believe strongly in lava being more dispersed to allow safer movement through the heat. I think this map does a little too much lava on height to the point that I avoid it until it’s absolutely necessary to grab a quick height attack or force an engagement. I like lava being used as hot stones where you jump between/across the heat and take height when needed, but a whole hill of lava causes me more to avoid it and just skirt around the edges. This proved to be the cases in many of my games, where the center height was only utilized sparingly for the risky or unexpected attack.
My last thought in this was the distance between Glyphs. I believe that Glyphs should be positioned in a way that the holders (or units nearby) can quickly traverse across the map to contest the other side. I particularly look for this for Wannock because Wannock plays such a huge part of the endgame that units farther away should be able to get back in time to contest someone camping out on the glyph. This map isn’t terrible, but it is noticeable that it takes 2-3 activations for Melee to reach from one side to the other from glyph to glyph. This wouldn’t be as much of an issue if Wannock weren’t so easily protected. Not only does a figure HAVE to access the glyph from the road to get a height attack, but it only takes 2 figures to block off the way to the glyph holder (one on the water and one on the road) this then requires the opponent to try and wrap around the tree to hit on the other side which takes time and potentially futile of the opponent just repositions to protect the other side. It’s an excellent casual map...but there are enough issues IMO that I don’t think it holds for a competitive tournament map.
Nomad - Forest Fire by
@rednax
is an intriguing map. I like the aesthetics, the theme, and the hexagonal shape. But, after four play-tests on Forest Fire I do not think it is tournament worthy. First to the Wannock glyph has a pretty good chance of holding it throughout the battle. There are four choke-points between the lava and the road wall that slows or prevents movement from side to side. Figures toward the back of the start zone often need two turns to get out of the start zone while potentially taking attacks from height. In one battle, Zelrig bombed deep into the start zone on the first turn with no chance of being attacked by a melee army in their first move. Zelrig also got off a second Majestic Fire with some success and the battle was pretty much determined after turn two of the first round as the Greenscales took control of the road and the glyphs.
I think with a few tweaks to this map it could work.
Sir Heroscape - Only played on this map once, and I had Glads/Blasts which you would think would rip through on this map. They should have, but I was too eager to take the center, and the lave burned through half my glads over the course of a couple rounds. Had I been more patient and set up a little better, I would have decimated the melee army I was fighting (and I was for the 1st half of the game). This map lends itself to too many tight corridors, especially in the center. Even with the lava, the games are very sluggish on this map and movement is tight and difficult to push forces through. That alone doesn't make the map completely broken though. What DOES is the shadow path. I didn't realize it until I was watching that same podding guy playing 10th Reg on this map during our NHSD tournament. This map is perfect for a Startzone pod. What he did was put Marcus in the center of the startzone 7-hex next to the shadow and then surrounded him with 10th reg. During gameplay he could sit there and shoot to the center of the map (even with just 6 range). This wouldn't be so bad except that his opponent never even engaged that position! All he had to do was put one figure somewhere along that shadow path to cut off any chance of reaching him. Even if they did engage the 7-hex startzone tile, there's still them attacking up and only one figure can get there. If there were other ways to attack the position it wouldn't be so bad, but if a figure blocks the shadow, the only other path to that position is all the way on the other side of the startzone. You'd have to fight through the other side of the startzone to reach the position, all the while being blocked off by water, lava and a narrow shadow path. This is exactly how that guy won. He stayed in his Startzone and waited, and then ripped through his opponent.
I vote
Biggabullfrog - After a couple games on this map I found Sir H's insight to be very on-point. Whoever has the range wins this map since there's no compelling reason to leave the area immediately out of the start zone. Even though the map is small, it takes a deceptive amount of movement to cross it. It takes so long for melee armies to make their way across the map that at least half of them will die on the way, and by then the ranged army will have had a good defensive position for a few turns. I really wanted this map to prove me wrong, but it just didn't even come close. The pathing is too slow and engagement points too weak for it to be any good for melee.
I like the concept, but for me. I'd like to see it reworked though.
Sir Heroscape - I think this map is one we don't really need to playtest to see the broken aspects of it. I think it's appropriate to just vote on this one as is. I witnessed a pod army handle a strong Heavy Grut army at our NHSD tournament just by sitting in his startzone on the 7-hex height position, and that was enough for me to realize this map with it's height in the startzone is just too broken as is.
If we are in agreement to just vote on it...I give it a
BiggaBullfrog? Robber? Tiranx?
Robber - Agreed. I like the concept of the map a lot, but I don't think it is balanced enough to be fair in tournament. A well-played pod can decimate most melee armies.
Biggabullfrog - Yeah... Campers wreck this map. Heavy Snow makes it difficult to develop armies with any sense of urgency. Armies can try to make a beeline through the middle to take out campers, but that's a gamble, and definitely not one in favor of the melee army. The three routes across the map are narrow and easily held. At best it's a dice grind battle of attrition that's not strategically involving or exciting. At worst it's a straight-up slaughter for whoever has the longer range. It's pretty enough, but unfortunately doesn't have the gameplay needed for tournament play.
Sir Heroscape - Each time the whole map was used. Brilliant and very unique place of glyphs. Kelda is a nice thematic touch but also very strategic to protect for your own use come mid-late game. Startzones are easy enough to develop out of, Jungle is spaced well to protect melee on their way in. Ground is flat enough and wide enough that pathing never really becomes an issue. Just super fun and balanced games on this map, and I did and do not see anything to keep it from being officially sanctioned. for me
TREX - My impressions of this map were mixed. I liked the layout ok. All the terrain seemed good. The glyph of kelda was in a good space. The two outer glyphs were hard to take. The advantage of flying figures to easily take those were apparent. Overall it is a decent map. It is not my favorite after playing it but I vote to its tournament worthiness though.
BiggaBullfrog - I want to like it. It looks cool and has a unique design, but competitively this one just isn't cutting it for me for a few reasons.
First off is my aforementioned issue of melee vs range. Every game that I've played melee vs range, range has won easily. The closest I got was when I bent the rules and used a mostly melee army (Nilf/Greenscales), which did a bit better, but still ultimately lost because Nilf's range was shorter and he and his lizard friends had to charge the snow hill.
Second, the edge glyphs aren't good enough by nature of their location. Being surrounded by water and a hefty amount of move away from the start zone means you have to commit serious resources to grabbing one, and more if you want to keep it after the guy on it gets shot (range usually doesn't worry about taking glyphs, just shooting them). Because they're so difficult to attain and keep, I usually just ignored them if they were anything but Common Attack, Move, or Defense, and even then I only grabbed one a couple times, never both. If they weren't really strong glyphs, they were straight up ignored. It took too much time and range was tearing the melee apart.
My third main issue with the map is how the glaciers in front of the start zones create chokepoints on either side. First off, this makes army development out of the start zone really slow, and with a lot of armies my focus was on getting figures out of the start zone for the first couple rounds, rather than on trying to actually attack my opponent. This also makes the melee vs range matchup worse because melee really has to struggle pulling figures out of the start zone, all the while range is strengthening its position on its height.
The other issue with the chokepoints is that they make the start zone incredibly easy to defend against melee. Does it look like the melee army might actually have a chance against a ranged one? Just pull back and sit on the choke points with Raelin nearby and any hope the melee army had will disappear. One game a Rat Raelin Range army won just by having Q9 cover one chokepoint and rats covering the other, both backed by Raelin, and whittling away the melee who could get limited attacks in.
In the end, this map just encourages and rewards turtling range armies too much for competitive play. The glyphs are so out of the way they're only considered if they're really strong, and since they're random that's a gamble. Even if the glyphs are good, podding a range army on height with Raelin watching over is better. While I feel like the map has some cool potential and I did have a couple fun games with mixed melee/range armies on it, ranged pods are just too strong on it as it currently is, so I'm going to have to vote to it.
Robber - I love the aesthetics and theme of Thaeberian Wellsprings. It just looks great overall. However, when I was playtesting this map, I ran into the same problems that BiggaBullfrog was concerned about.
1) The starting zone is difficult to leave and the two starting zones are pretty far apart
2) The starting zone is close to LOS blockers, height, and jungle
3) The two face-down glyphs take a long time to reach (4 turns for a unit with 5 move!)
4) The map is relatively flat, and the highest points on the map are lv 3
5) Although I like the Kelda glyph thematically, it's a temporary glyph. Once it's used up, there isn't much reason for any units to fight in that area of the map
The major theme of all of these problems is that each player does not have a large enough incentive to make their units approach their opponent - especially their ranged units. Ranged units can get so much more mileage by just podding on the snow near their starting zone. The number of moves that players need to invest to get their units to the lv 3 grass height and face-down glyphs is also a huge disincentive
I think these issues can be easily corrected with a few minor tweaks. If an updated Thaeberian Wellspring were submitted, I would absolutely vote yes for it. However, for the moment, I'm going to give it a .
TREX - I actually liked this one ok. I felt it favored range just a little bit but there was a decent amount of cover and the glyph distribution was well placed. I vote for tournament worthiness on this one.
Sir Heroscape - I agree with TREX. The 2 activations it takes to get to height not too far from the startzone is a little concerning for me but not terrible. I think the other features of the map: good glyph placement, LOS blockers and open pathing make up for that slightly range favorable feature. I really enjoyed my games on this map and I think it has a lot of very fun features that help keep things balanced, the game moving and exciting finishes. I actually really like the move and defense glyph on this map to help melee (if they grab them) because that I think is enough of a help to counter the natural podding positions that range can take. Though slightly range favorable, I don't think it's broken. for me.
BiggaBullfrog - Visually the map is pretty good. I like the feel that Herofly was going for and think it's a neat concept. Although I have to say that I'm not a huge fan of how much excess terrain there is from the two master sets used. Not that that alone would kill a map for me, but it is another ding against it.
Ranged armies love this map, especially Wait-Then-Fire pods and 'Trons. The glyphs can easily be shot from the high ground outside each start zone, and while they're good glyphs, dedicating resources to keep them is costly. It takes a long time for melee armies to even engage ranged ones, and it's literally always an uphill fight, especially if Raelin is hiding back there too. In fact, most of the high ground can be covered by Raelin's aura, and usually ranged armies have no reason to leave their perch. While LoS blockers are used, it's too sporadic to effectively block ranged shots, and melee armies will be under heavy fire before they close in on enemy ranks.
It's a neat map concept, but the power that ranged armies have on this map kills it - none of my games were even close. It has several other dings that further seal my decision. I have to vote
Tiranx - This was a challenging map to judge. I started with a vote and then as I play tested and pondered, had to rethink my initial thoughts.
This map is very aesthetically pleasing; however, aesthetics only really matter during the top ten votes. Range has a significant advantage on this map. The highest point on the map is easily obtainable by round two. A good melee play is going to rush in and try to contest that height as quickly as possible. For that reason, the movement glyph is paramount for most melee armies. In order to obtain that glyph, the player has to overextend his forces to reach it making his units easy targets for the range player who has already taken height.
I really think this can fixed with two simple and minor changes to map. First, if the three water tiles on sides of the map could be switched with the three swamp tiles in the start zone. This would allow melee units to skirt the edge and easily obtain the best LoS blockers, the ruins. Secondly, if the three tiles that make the highest point were moved forward on the seven hexer, then it would be possible for melee to close and contest.
I almost up voted this map and I really enjoyed playing on it, but I think that a down vote here and a quick workshop would make this map so much better for tournament play. So, my final vote is .
TREX - After playing on this map with my majority melee based army vs a predominantly range army found that there is little to no cover to support melee. My opponent was able to get max attacks out of his army 2/3 of the game and my melee army couldn't get in range for a full attack. It only happened once. That is the deal-breaker on this one. After seeing it built, it was not visually appealing and thought there was too much going on with four glyphs on the map. Also the startzones were very odd and hard to even recognize where they were. I vote on this one.
Sir Heroscape - I agree with TREX except that I actually didn't feel it was terribly imbalanced for Melee vs. Range, but I do feel this map is UNPOLISHED. The gameplay is okay/good, and while I don't think it's broken, it wasn't lending itself to being great, and I think we should hold a standard high for great maps. It does lack aesthetically and it does have a lot of little things that draw it back:
1) Startzones are terribly confusing! I've never had to say that before about a map, but this one really does make it annoying to set up your army
2) it's too busy with too many glyphs, especially when the central glyphs are imbalanced with Wannock on one side and lodin on the other. People will rather stick to the Wannock side.
3) LoS Blockers are facing the wrong way! seriously though, the castle walls could be better utilized to assist melee across this map.
4) I really dislike the placement of the ruins, put there almost as an afterthought and not really lending much purpose other than to get a sneak attack on a glyph holder or hide from some central figures.
5) Lava is meh. It's not the worst I've seen, but I think it could have been used better to allow figures (mainly melee) to develop across the map without having to potentially end movement on lava, they basically have to stick to the road. I think lava is a very difficult expansion to design well and I just don't think this map has gotten there yet.
So like I said, not terrible games when I played on this map...but it's just not there yet. It's got a lot of little things that hold it back, which in the long run make it not worthy of competitive tournament play.
Sir Heroscape - For me, this map is broken/unbalanced. It's hard to tell at first, but its asymmetrical in the center and really creates issues. If a figure is in the middle water piece...only on one side can a double-spaced figure get same level adjacent. The opposite side of the spot is blocked by an outcrop...and the other two spots + water nearby make it almost impossible for 2-spacers to maneuver. The water in the center + elevation changes + asymmetrical outcrops cause the center to be choppy and difficult. I've even used Fliers and Hydras...but it showed me how imbalanced it was for me and I killed my opponent quite easily. On top of these issues, a 6-move flier can reach the summoning glyph turn 1. This is broken for me, especially when Fliers with 6-move are quite common in Competitve builds and summoning a key unit either YOURS or your opponents can give you entire map control. And because there are no other glyphs, controlling the center is a downhill battle and will almost always end in victory. Imagine you fly in Nilfeim turn 1 and summon in your own Raelin next to him and then move up Bonding Greenscales. Think your opponent will have much of a chance getting to you while having the disadvantage of low ground and no other glyphs?
BiggaBullfrog - Like Sir H said, the middle of this map really just ruins it. It's just a slight asymmetrical imbalance, but it's significant enough to keep this map from being awesome. Which is too bad, because I enjoy the other areas of the map and think it's got a lot of goodness going for it. It would probably be an easy fix if the middle were just redesigned, and maybe a couple minor issues addressed (I personally think the pathing could be a bit more open to allow the map to breathe more, but that could just be a personal thing, and it's close enough anyway to probably be good). For now, though,
Sir Heroscape - for me on this one. I actually really like the look and feel of the map, but there are some red flags to be considered. The edges with the height are actually planned out really well allowing fairly open movement and no easy way for range to pod. The problem comes in the center. It's too congested and chokey, and I don't like the dip down then up of the road in the center (I think that makes things too choppy). The road platforms are easy camping spots and the water creates a natural barrier from a frontal assault. Those positions are also only accessible through 3 narrow (really only 2 from an attacking army)positions...all of which would have to attack up if a defending figure were blocking their way up onto the platform. I think this map is good, but needs to be opened up by leveling out the road in the center, switching out some central water, and definitely removing battlements from the road platforms in order to make it easier to attack the position.
Robber - Platinum river is an amazing looking map and easily my favorite from the Uncharted Wellsprings contest. The aesthetics are great and I would build it any time for casual play.
I ran into a few major issues while playtesting the map.
1) The left half of the map (relative to each players' start zone) is much more advantageous than the right half. Units can reach both the level 4 height and the central glyph much more quickly from the left than the right.
2) It is difficult to traverse the map by using the road. Well-placed road tiles allow units to move quickly between different points on the map. The road on Platinum River has multiple elevation changes and choke points, so it doesn't offer much of an advantage to melee units.
3) The battlements, outcroppings, and water create oppressive choke points. To give credit to All Your Pie, the battlements look great on the map. But I think for Platinum River to be considered tournament worthy, a lot of them should be removed to open up the map.
I have to vote on Platinum River, but would love to see it revised and resubmitted.
TREX - Though I like how the map looks there is not a whole lot to it. The glyph in the middle is useful kelda goes away after one go. The glyph is also harder to get for single space non flying figures. I think this map is balanced and does work for competitive play though it does not excite me as much as it did. As for its competitve worthiness as it is I vote .
Sir Heroscape - At first I thought this map was kind of bland and uninteresting, but I've had some good fun games on it and I think it is balanced. I think range still can do well even with the lack of height, and it's fairly easy for melee to maneuver as well. I like that Kelda isn't game-breaking but makes for some interesting gameplay/choices when a key hero gets wounded. My one qualm is that the highest points are off the the corners of the map where it's too out of the way and unlikely to be used when so far from the action that goes on in the center. But, that's a small thing, and games have still been balanced and fun in the multiple games I've played on this one. for me
BiggaBullfrog - My major qualm with this map is the glyph. With Kelda surrounded by water, it takes 2 turns for the your average hero to get on it, and then 2 more turns to get off and back into action (if the action is that close by). Add in the fact that the glyph is in the middle of a kill box anyway, and that hero's trip is most likely going to be wasted as it will die or at least be seriously wounded again by the time it gets back out. So really, there's no point to go for the glyph and that whole middle area amounts to nothing (for most armies) as it's got too much water to try to cross that way anyway.
Other than that, there's not much terrible with the map, but nothing great either, IMHO. Most of it is kind of tip-toeing the line between a "yes" and a "no" for me. Gameplay, aesthetics, strategy, etc. are all okay, but nothing pushes me towards a "yes," while the glyph/water in the middle is firmly pushing me to a "no," as I can't recommend a map for tournament play that has a wasted center. I think if the middle were redesigned and there were some simple adjustments to the rest of the map, it could go from okay to great fairly easily. For now,
Robber - I think Dr. Goomonkey had a good vision and lots of inspiration when he built Wasted Swampland. It's pretty simple and the games I played on it were fun.
There isn't anything horribly unbalanced on Wasted Swampland, but there are definitely some minor issues:
1) Echoing BiggaBullfrog, I don't like the placement of the Kelda glyph, although I appreciate that it was put there for the theme of the Wellsprings of Valhalla contest.
2) I felt like the map was a bit lacking in polish. Some of the terrain feels like it was placed as filler and is out of place aesthetically. (The rock, sand, and grass tiles to the sides of the starting zones)
3) I didn't feel that the map was presenting me with any interesting tactical challenges during gameplay. In particular, the map lacks a permanent glyph or any other terrain positions that are really advantageous. This is especially noticable because the map is so open and flat, and a lot of the height is lava field.
Overall, I like Wasted Swampland and would definitely play on it again in a casual setting, but I don't think it is a map that I would bring to a tournament.
BiggaBullfrog - The first thing to note for this map is the visual appeal. Aesthetically, it looks great. Strategically, your mind jumps into action as you consider different ways to play on the map. It's a great size. It just looks like a competitive map.
As far as gameplay goes, it's pretty quick. Troops get into the action quickly, the pathing is smooth, and decisions are forced as you determine whether it's better to claim the middle with the glyph or take height on either side. Jungle helps as you skirt the edges and bring up troops, and the action feels smooth.
Personally, my only concerns with the map is that the middle area can get a little clogged up when melee troops try to cross it and are being tied down, especially by Rats, but Rats can clog up most anything, and while it takes a little longer, the edge hills can be used as paths as well (which often has to happen to get enemy units off of it). I also had worries about the East/West movement from one side of of the map to the other, as the only way through is through the central water area unless you skirt around the low ground near either start zone. But in practice, the glyph/jungle helps enough in that area that it feels even when the late-game units are chasing each other around.
After Sir H's concerns about range being able to blitz start zones too easily, I did several rigorous tests of melee vs range, and personally I found that while ranged armies can seem to have an early game advantage, melee is able to catch up to the range quickly enough, or force range to settle for terrible positions. Not that melee won every time, but it consistently felt fair without a blowout either way.
Super enjoy this map. I vote to induct.
Sir Heroscape - My initial concerns were turn 1 attacks on the startzone with range...BUT that is less of a concern because of the disadvantage it can put the army at. If you extend that far into the center to take early shots, you may make your units susceptible to early engagements. The middle ground is low enough that an opponent can counter a range strike with a fairly fast melee charge. That, and the jungle is placed well enough for units to hug up against before charging to counter the position of range. I also like the height on the edges. While providing good height for range units, it's easily contestable, and again jungle is near enough for units to hug against and then charge the hill. I think the size of this map also helps melee in keep range limited to their ability to just run and gun the whole time. I also think that a smart player may just need to place their startzone correctly to avoid turn 1 attacks and then the issue is resolved. So, as I stated in my previous review, I love this map. It's easy to build, looks great and I've always had a lot of fun playing on it. My concern was early range attacks....but I'm seeing that it isn't as much of a concern and actually quite balanced.
for me!
Tiranx - Bountiful Grove a lot of things that I look for in a tournament map: Good size, ability to close ranks quickly due pathing and spacing, tactical choices, and balanced height. As a bonus it is also very aesthetically pleasing.
One of the first things I always check is distance from start zones and glyphs. Bountiful Groves pushes the limits on this. Some units have the ability to hit the other start zone on turn one. Most of those units are dragon or really fast range units. To do that though, a player must overextend their own units making them vulnerable to a counter attack. I enjoy the tactics of this and the decision making that it creates. It also causes the game to start at set up. When I see that my opponent has Zelrig and can hit my start zone, I need to set up my start zone a little differently.
I especially love the strategic choice of taking height or taking the defense glyph. Range will definitely go for height while melee would probably go for the glyph. With the tight quarters of this map though, neither one has an advantage over the other. This creates a situation where skill and the dice decide the victor!
I am going to give Bountiful Grove a resounding . Nice job Robber .
TREX - Startzones arent bad but it is very limiting on the center one surrounded by water. I found that the glyphs of wannock actually detract from the map. So much time goes into taking the glyphs that each team will settle for one and each team takes a wound on each team each round. It would be much better if they were replaced with move and initiative. Then the middle would get played more. How it is currently is ok but would be better if the glyphs were changed to initiative and move and if the start zone island were fixed. There were slightly loose pieces for structure stability but not bad. It wasnt a bad overall map. Its a for me. With a minor change of glyph selection Id vote .
BiggaBullfrog - While building this map, I kept noticing all of these pockets for ranged units to camp on and kept thinking to myself "Yeah, there's no way that melee vs range is going to be an even battle." So I wasn't super stoked about it. Then, while playing on it, I was like "Woah, this map is actually kind of fun to play on - it really feels like you're hacking your way through some kind of jungle-y cavern-y area." And so I wanted it to do well.
But it was super apparent after just a few games that, as I had been concerned, melee doesn't stand a chance against ranged armies, especially those that like to turtle like 4th Mass. There are Wannok Glyphs to try to draw ranged armies out, but most ranged figures can hit those glyphs without leaving their start zone. Then there are all sorts of mounds right outside the start zones, meaning range can sit there and shoot for days. There's plenty of Jungle and Shadow on the map to try to protect advancing melee, but it's just not enough. They get torn apart in the end as the terrain is, while cool, difficult to cross and it takes a good number of turns before melee armies are really getting full value of attacks each turn. There are also a ton of glyphs on this map, and I think it would have been better to simplify it a bit.
Overall, a cool map that I would recommend wholeheartedly for casual play, but never for competitive play.
Sir Heroscape - 2 Wannocks is absolutely devastating on this map because they are so far away from each other making end game situations impossibly dependent on the Wannock control and during the game if one army controls both, they have to bounce between the two trying to take their opponent off. This map is also very hard to develop an army -melee that is- it took me and my opponent the whole first round to get out of the start zones and I think turn 2 of round 2 to get some fighting in. Ranged armies would be picking melee off whiteout much retaliation. I think this map is also a little big too big for a good standard size tournament map to fit on a table. It would be great for a team battle though!
September 10th, 2017, 09:02 PM
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for me.