The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

I don't think a unit of this immensely useful order marker freedom will ever be passed by VC. I don't think it should, either; it changes the metagame too severely. At 80 points, it's straight-up broken, allowing for all sorts of army builds that struggle with order marker usage.

Order marker freedom is deceptively powerful, and should only be used in limited ways. Most notably for factions, but also in limited ways like Rygarn does.

[robbdaman]

Just as an FYI that Contemplative miniature was announced as going to be used in C3V in June.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by robbdaman

Just as an FYI that Contemplative miniature was announced as going to be used in C3V in June.

Guess you gotta follow the news more.

Originally Posted by superfrog

By the way, the brain with the gun does not currently have a C3V design in process. If anybody would like to come up with their own card and submit to the SoV a la Executioner 616 we would be glad to see the whole box used!

[robbdaman]

Within C3V's forum space it's impossible to follow it all, particularly the Starfinder development as it's way too much at one time. If they aren't using that one it's not the most common knowledge since it wasn't posted when announced.

[Astroking112]

I like the direction of the design for evoking a neural network (and it feels extremely thematic!), although I am also concerned about just how much OM freedom it gives. Sensory Overload poses a significant risk (I'd imagine that this is the most likely way that Ebol will die in many games, since it'll often be difficult to breach the SZ), but I'm not sure if the threat of losing most of a round is enough to fully make up for the carte blanche before that. It's a difficult thing to balance, and like Scytale noted, even if it's balanced, it might not even pass VC for that reason.

In terms of suggestions, I think that emphasizing this risk aspect a bit more (and potentially limiting the OM freedom like Rygarn) could help address those concerns a bit. If Sensory Overload was a significantly higher risk (either from having a lower life or a greater chance of wounding), then many builds that struggle with OMs might not want to take that plunge. As another example, if the OMs could only be moved to figures within 6 clear sight spaces a la Rygarn, then he has to stay on the frontlines and is no longer always useful. Building off of this, I think that Ebol shouldn't be able to sacrifice an unrevealed OM to save himself from a wound--it essentially gives him a free pass each round, and I think that the risk from Overload becomes much more pronounced without it.

For more minor nitpicks, I think that moving the X OM from his card with a numbered OM isn't useful enough to be worth the text. Unless I'm forgetting something major off the top of my head, the only real uses that it serves is to make powers like Crag of Steel still activatable with Ebol (many other ones using the X, like Public Playtesting's recent Ranjit Singh, occur before initiative, so they're still prohibited by Central Hub anyway). Effectively taking away the player's ability to bluff and cutting some figures like Heracles or Siege out of the network feels like a healthier change to me, and it makes for a simpler card.

I'm not sure if I like or dislike how strong Ebol is with the Children of the Dark Star. They do a lot to remove the risks of Sensory Overload, and they can effectively just be spammed without any other big Outsiders since they get to activate 6, 5, and then 4 figures. It's definitely a concerning synergy, but it also gels quite nicely with their card.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Just to put in my on Ebol. Please take with a grain of salt since I am not yet well versed in the ways of VC. These are my thoughts before, during, and after one game. The after-gameplay thoughts, IMO, are what is important.

HS2010 - Q9, Hydra, Raelin, Ebol, 3x Rats, Marcu
Vitm - Nilfheim, 3x KoW, Gilbert, Krav

Originally Posted by Vydar is the man (in a PM to heroscaper2010)

Initial thoughts before we played
• This seems to be a non-specific Uglinesh or Ornak. 80 points seems really cheap for the amount of flexibility it provides.
• It isn’t aura based, this seems way overpowered.
• Why does it have range? A psychic attack I guess… seems unnecessary you’ll never use it until you’ve already lost.

Thoughts during gameplay
• It doesn’t play like Uglinesh or Ornak. It plays like the Marro Hive. Its more like you are paying 80 points to play without order markers.
• Once I figured out the previous bullet point, I switched from focusing on Ebol first to focusing on Raelin first. After Raelin died I then went after Q9 and Hydra. I didn’t think about assassinating Ebol until like 2 turns before it happened. (My 5 wound Nilf, disengaged from a rat and flew over to one-shot a 2-life Ebol, costing HS2010 3 OMs that round.)
• Ebol isnt really in your face with its support like Raelin is. I only noticed 1-2 order markers that Ebol obviously allowed you to activate figures to react to something that happened mid round in a way that would have been a very hard to call while traditionally setting order markers at the beginning of the round.

Thoughts after gameplay
• Ebol’s value is directly proportional to the complexity of an army’s order marker management. It is a great boon to the Q9 Hydra army you played it with. Every turn could be Q9, Hydra, Rats , or even Raelin to react perfectly to how the game develops. I would never run Ebol with the army I played. My order markers were too easy. Knights or Nilf (I was planning to switch to Krav after Nilfheim died, but he never did).
• Due to the above, Ebol becomes a staple in Heroes only or Uniques only formats. Greatly increasing the flexibility of everything not named Uglinesh, Ornak, and Kurrok. All while hiding behind the start zone ruin on Fire Isles.
• Ebol doesn’t really help top armies. Bonding melee, Tron, 4th/10th, Nilf/Greenscales, Quahon/Spiders all have easier order marker management. It has the potential to boost lower tier armies that aren’t as easily manageable. An army of Zetacron, snipers and repulsors comes quickly to mind.
• Essentially if you have 3+ places to put order markers, you start thinking about bringing Ebol.
• Another interesting thought is that Ebol’s value is inversely proportional to the player’s skill at order marker management. A player that likes to and is skillful enough to pilot Toolbox or Splash armies in a Reverse the Whip format are likely not going to need Ebol because of their skill. Whereas a new(er) player would love to have Ebol in order to not be crippled by poor order marker management.
• A player using Ebol really needs to protect it. One lost order marker can often times swing a competitive game, try losing a whole round like what happened in our game. I don’t think the benefits of easy order markers can ever justify the cost of losing a whole round’s worth of order markers.

[Dad_Scaper]

I like the theme of all the powers, including Neural Transmission, but I agree with Scy that it's just a non-starter in the metagame. It's not just that it's extremely powerful, it's that even trying to put a value on it would be impossible. And its long shadow would be cast over every future design idea, as well, for potentially dangerous interactions.

Just no. I'm sorry, I like how thematic it is, but there's a reason why no other card can do it.

[Sheep]

For the record, I have played 10 games with or against Ebol in which Ebol's team has won 2 of them. kd and I also played a mirror matchup this morning. Below is the game log with Ebol's winning teams highlighted in blue and his losing teams highlighted in red, along with the opponent's army for each game.

Armies played:
(some armies may be 5pts under)

430pts
Heracles, 10th Regiment of Foot x2, Ebol vs. Fyorlag Spiders x5, Wyvern x2, Guilty McCreech

480pts
160pt Outsider Hero, Children of the Dark Star x4, Ebol vs. Ornak, Grimnak, Nerak, Blade Gruts x5, Isamu

500pts
Ebon Armor, Tagawa Samurai, Krav Maga Agents, Tarn Viking Warriors, Marcu Esenwein, Ebol vs. Goblin Cutters x5 (drop 1), Eltahale, Airborne Elite (technically an army not allowed by almost all tourney rules but it was a super close game with Eltahale 1-life and an AE remaining)
Bramcephys, B-11 Resistance Fighters, Deathreavers x2, Ebol vs. Arrow Gruts x4, Swog Riders x3, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Johnny Shotgun
Cathar Spearmen x3, Count Raymond, Van Nessing, Ebol vs. Zombies of Morindan x7, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)
Children of the Dark Star x7, Ebol vs. 10th Regiment of Foot x5, Gen. Simon Fraser, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)

1 mirror game with Varkaanan Swiftfangs, Varkaanan Greyspears, Varkaanan Darkclaws, Varkaanan Quickblades, Isamu, Ebol vs. 160pt Outsider Hero, Children of the Dark Star x4, Ebol (should’ve had Marcu in there as well, but not sure it would’ve made a difference as I rolled 60% skulls/35% shields vs. kd’s 42/25% respectively)

525pts
Mohican River Tribe x4, Brave Arrow, Himmelskralle, Bol, Ebol vs. Kurrok the Elementalist, Fire Elementals x9, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Isamu

550pts
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Fen Hydra, Tagawa Samurai, Krav Maga Agents, Marro Warriors, Ebol vs. Honor Guard of the Blasted Lands x7, Warden 816
Mok, Axegrinders of the Burning Forge x2, Beorn Boltcutter, Zetacron vs. Capuan Gladiators x3, Crixus, Spartacus, Guilty McCreech, Marcu Esenwein

600pts
Deathreavers x3, Major Q9, Fen Hydra, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Marcu Esenwein, Ebol vs. Knights of Weston x3, Sir Gilbert, Nilfheim, Krav Maga Agents

Also for the record, Ebol never died to Sensory Overload in any of these games. He was assassinated with 3 numbered OMs once. That was the 600pt game Vydar mentioned. Note that Vydar took a successful 1-life Nilfheim LEA to do so, rolled 2-skulls, and I whiffed when Ebol already had 2 wounds from Overload.

Whether it changes anything or not, I don't know. I at least want to have that information out there.

EDIT: Updated with a couple more games that I remembered playing but had to dig a little deeper in my google drive to find. These are officially all of the games I've played with or against Ebol. His teams are 2-8-1 (mirror game ).

[Dad_Scaper]

The issue is not (just) the danger of it being overpowered. The reach of that power’s icy fingers into the metagame is too great, IMHO. Is there a current explosive interaction? I don’t know. Maybe. Even if there isn’t, a design like this would force the SoV and the C3V to add a little checkbox for every single design, asking whether it can get broken by Ebol.

I’m a pretty aggressive designer, on the rare occasions when I try to flex that muscle. And I think you’ve nailed the theme here. But if I suggested that power inside the C3V, Scy would be just as blunt with me there as he is with you here, and he’d be right. It’s just too much.

[Sheep]

I would think Ranjit is much more likely to add a checkbox, if not the same/similar checkbox, as Ebol... (and I'm not saying that in hopes that Ranjit never gets released. I LOVE Ranjit, and he's been a major discussion point in a lot of my games with Chris about the armies him and Ebol like most)

Bonding common squads do not need Ebol as Vydar mentioned. Ranjit can't use them either.

Common Squads w/o bonding but with complementary Heroes such as Count Raymond/Cathar Spearmen along with mini-factions that bond like Wyrmlings, Thralls, Varkaanan Uniques, and Wildwoods (in games at or above 580) like Ebol the most because of his ability to keep the OMs safe away from the front lines where you have to risk that OM getting cut down.

Again as Vydar said, skilled players can mostly avoid those risks with smart OM placement and don't need Ebol. Also, neither of those units can be used with Ranjit, which might make this area Ebol's strong suit. Regardless, I'm not sure any of those armies like him more than Raelin or Rats x2.

Ranged Unique Squads and strong Unique Heroes of course love Ebol, especially when combined with Rats, but this is where Ranjit comes into contest along with Raelin and said Rats x2.

As far as potential designs go, Ranjit is the most complex OM dictator, and Ebol is designed in a way that he cannot activate Lion of Punjab. If that can be done without a corner case, I really don't see what design space we are talking about that makes Ebol OP unless you designed a power/unit so bizarre/powerful that it itself probably wouldn't pass.

Strong Unique Hero? Bramcephys. Heracles. Marutuk. Check.
Ranged Unique Squads? Eenie meenie miney mo. Check.
"After revealing an Order Marker" units and factions? See above. Check.

You already have Rygarn and you already have Ranjit who both overlap Ebol to certain extents in what they do, how they work, and who they work with.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Oh sweet, it's that brain that I liked and meant to go back and comment more on but forgot like the goldfish I am.

I'm not as strongly against the idea of a central OM hub as others are, but I'll definitely also point out that it's going to be a tough hill to climb, if climbing it proves feasible. That's a discussion in and of itself, and will probably end up being the more vital conversation for the figure, but I don't have a ton to add to it right now so I'll jump to figure feedback since I do like the card, even if it just ends up being a really good custom. I will say that juggling OMs betwen Rats/Raelin/Marro Warriors is pretty nuts, and a really high ceiling for an army the the OM hub figure is a steal of a bargain.

Ebol currently looks to be a steal of a bargain.

80 Points is, I think, too low for a figure like this. Especially when compared with Rygarn -- he's more fragile, sure, but is going to provide sooo much more value than Rygarn does for the cost, and Rygarn already provides a ton of value. Ebol isn't really making you sacrifice much in order to maximize that value either, which is also upstaging Rygarn, who at least has some limitations going on. In short, I don't think he's skill-testing enough.

I think the main issues, for me, is the lack of restriction in Neural Transmission and the point cost. For the power, mechanically, it just makes it a safer design if there's a space limit on it. I think it also makes more sense thematically. It doesn't need to be clear sight-based, since the thing's a psychic brain and there's already precedent for non-LoS powers with psychics in 'Scape, but I definitely think a space limit should be in place. I'd say any figure taking a turn should have to start within 6 spaces of Ebol, which is pretty generous without clear sight. I also think allowing OM X transfer isn't restrictive enough. It basically means you'll be bringing Heracles or Van Nessing for an extra turn, but even worse it would severely limit OM X powers in the future, which I think is a design space that should be left as open as possible. (And, really, part of me would rather it not move OMs at all but just be a "take a turn" power like Red Skull, just to further restrict the power combos that can be played. Except for that red guy who he makes better.)

For the points, a figure like Ebol is just naturally going to have to cost more. Sure, compared to other commander figures he's not giving you 2+ turns with your cards like the other ones are, but he also lacks all of the restrictions they have, which at least makes up, or more than makes up, for that deficit. Basically, he needs to be a serious investment past the point where you're like "I've got 100 points left, who should I add? How about free OM guy?"

I'd also rather see the roll for Sensory Overload be higher. Especially if it's mixed with a space requirement, I'd see that as adding more skill-testing to an army. If figures need to be within 6 spaces to activate, you want to keep them closer together, but if being outside of 6 spaces negates the Sensory Overload, then there's reason to look for when it's important to break the formation and make a wider spread. Combine that with a higher percentage for the roll, and I think that would provide some cool interaction of what you're doing when playing Ebol and what an opponent can do to play around the strength it's giving you.

Anyway, those are my broad strokes for the figure. Going down the card I have more nitpicks which I'll list really quick, but I'm going to say off the top that the only reason I'm looking this deep for nitpicks is because I do really like the concept for the figure.

Ebol - Don't love the name. Seems kind of basic to me? But it could be a reference I'm not getting.
Valkrill - Seems like a definite Vydar figure to me. Valkrill is too chaotic to embrace a figure like this, IMO.
Outsider - Don't love it. Don't hate it, but I think it's more interesting as its own thing.
Brain - I think Psychic is better as already established in HS, and leaves some potential interesting tie-ins in the future.

Again, I really like the concept of the figure. The interplay of Central Hub -> Neural Transmission -> Sensory Overload is thematically awesome. But also, there is definitely something to be said about the way a figure like this would influence the future metagame, so while it's an awesome custom there's a definite chance that it just won't fly due to that impact. (While I've been typing about it I can already feel myself feeling that the impact could be more trouble than it's worth.) Again, not the part of the conversation I was focusing on, but really even if it doesn't fly in an "unofficial official" capacity it's definitely a cool card that I'll likely adopt into my home games.

Holy cow that was long. Sorry, that's what happens when I add a little here and there while working on another project. Also, I'm tired, so this is more of a ramble than it should be. Posting it anyway, because if I don't now I never will.

[Sheep]

Thanks Bigga for all of the great insight and a good start for what I'm sure will be a long discussion.

I'll start with your nitpicks, as I am actually happy to explain them and glad someone brought them up.

Ebol is simply an emordnilap of Lobe, and Ebol has 4 life because a brain has 4 lobes. (Gameplay-wise this works great as well.) I considered naming him Ebol IV, but Ebol does just fine. I'm open to changing it but there's your answer. Note he also has a neat/useful synergy with [just]Bol, in case he is assassinated.

Valkrill mostly because I landed on Outsider, because what other species is this darned thing?!?! But then the mind control and using anything and everything for his dirty work works into the chaotic evil of Valkrill.

Outsider because, again, what species is this disgusting thing? Seriously though, the change in how the Children armies build/play with Ebol compared to other Outsiders is one of the coolest things about the design, IMO. That's from someone who loves the Children and the Outsiders not named Ebol and how their OM management works.

Brain - I'm fine with changing this to whatever fits better. Psychic seems to be a great fit to me.

Maybe the real issue with the Valkrill/Outsider choices is Systematic being the choice Personality. There is probably a much better Personality that would play more into the theme of mind control and chaotic evil. EDIT: Think I found it - Tormenting. Works way better than Systematic. You could make an argument that Ebol is just as Tormented himself as he is Tormenting to others. Maybe Conflicted?

Now onto the deep stuff. Bear with me here. Lots to cover.

I settled on 80pts because of what you can get for those same points: Raelin or Rats x2. As has already been mentioned, Ebol's value is inversely proportional to a player's skill level. For a majority of armies, a higher skill player can skip on Ebol to pick up Raelin or Rats. Additionally, some armies benefit equally, if not more, from having Raelin/Rats than having Ebol. This can again depend on the player's skill/comfort level.

Now when you do pick up Ebol for an army (sometimes with Raelin/Rats/both), you are essentially turning that whole army into a time bomb against Ebol in exchange for Ebol's easy OM management for as long as that time bomb doesn't explode or become "diffused". Building an army around Ebol needs just as much consideration. Adding a squad of Rats is 4 more opportunities to Overload Ebol. Adding Raelin is anywhere between 1-5 more opportunities to Overload Ebol. Adding Bramcephys is adding up to 9 more opportunities, etc.

Ebol might seem like a steal for 80pts, but try playing games down 80pts just so you can have easier OM management that you could probably manage yourself. The rest of your army has to be able to pull that weight. When you get to 80pts left and your army is without Raelin, Rats, or Ebol, you really have to decide if the OM management is worth not picking up Raelin or Rats. I understand that he can't be 20pts or even common armies would add him to every army, but in the 400-600pt range, he sits perfectly competing for spots against Raelin and Rats. After that point threshold, sure you can grab Raelin/Rats and Ebol, maybe even all 3, but there's a clock to how long Ebol will last in those games. He didn't die directly to Overload in any of the standard point games, mostly because of games not lasting long enough, but I guarantee he would die directly to Overload in larger point games. The biggest key is making sure Overload's d20 roll is right, and hitting around 2 times per round in normal, non-'X' OM armies.

Nonetheless, a record of 2-8 says he's not worth it.

I initially had a clear sight range restriction on the card, but removed it because of how easily it can be manipulated with commons and how much it hurts Heroes. Even without the clear sight restriction and just a range restriction, Ebol being anywhere near the frontlines where he can be assassinated by Syvarris or Zetacron is not ideal whatsoever. Same with the points, I'm willing to test it and let others test it. I think maybe if the range was 8 like Kato the worst case scenario is that it forces him closer to the front of the Start Zone, whereas all of my tests he has been pushed to the farthest space away from the center of the map so that it takes more to assassinate him.

Speaking of start zones and assassinations, the map can highly dictate how good or bad Ebol is for an army. Elongated maps/start zones are really bad and The Borogroves is where Vydar was able to get to Ebol in the late game after my line of Rats had thinned out. I'll add to previous comments about that game that Nilfy could've maneuvered his way so that he could SA the Rat (on height) he was engaged to and be within range of Ebol so that if he killed the Rat he could attack Ebol from range, but Vydar opted for the 50-50 and lucked out.

While it hasn't been tested (yet), theoryscape says any figure with some sort of Disengage poses a serious threat to Ebol. Most namely this would be Cyprien or PKs but it could even be Rats against Ebol's mushy defense.

This can be where Central Hub becomes more of a negative power than a neutral positive one combined with Neural Transmission. It does not take much to kill Ebol, and with the right figures and the right timing on an Initiative swing, your opponent can really pay for fielding him unlike if they were fielding Raelin. Don't think Ebol is risky? Watch your opponent take 3 unanswered turns nearing the end of a close game, which could easily be 5 turns in a row if they lost initiative the previous round and win initiative in the round after killing Ebol, all because he took a successful 50-50 leaving engagement attack.

It's actually because of this that Chris and I had discussions that it's sometimes better to kill Ebol off with your own figures on your OM 3 before the start of the next round so that you aren't forced to place all of your OMs on Ebol and risk losing them immediately.

Yeah. Go from that discussion to hearing about how OP Ebol is.

The 'X' OM clause in Neural Transmission does not guarantee you'll be bringing Heracles or Van Nessing or Evar or Siege or any potential 'X' OM figure at all. Again, all of those figures are adding more chances for Overload AND taking away the one thing preventing Ebol from taking wounds from said Overload. The 'X' OM is Ebol's football helmet. Take it off and risk a whole lot of injury.

The play between the 'X' OM and Overload is then what makes the Children army so fascinating. The Children really prefer the 'X' OM to stay on Ebol so they can get that OM's extra activation. That said, they would rather place wounds directly onto Ebol than remove the 'X' OM. Counterbalancing that are the Spirit rerolls.

Speaking of the Children, Ebol does allow them to activate 6 on OM '1', 5 on OM '2', and 4 on OM '3' for a total of 15 figure activations per round. This brings the Children up to par with many other units like melee bonding and Marro Drones.

Lastly, I want to reiterate that I don't think any design could come up that wouldn't have to pass through Rygarn's "checkbox" or Ranjit's "checkbox" anyway. Rygarn and Ranjit help hodge-podge Unique armies. Raelin and Rats have been helping every army, including Rygarn, Ranjit, and especially hodge-podge Unique armies, since the beginning of time.

I'm simply trying to add a non-beginning letter R unit (yes, I'm counting Rats ) to the list.

I really don't think Ebol changes the game as much as is currently feared. Skilled players still prefer Raelin's +2 defense or an eight-Rat screen over something they can do themselves, and if you can manage to get 2-3 of them in the army with larger point games that army is managed by the eventual death from Overload or Ebol's assassination.

Thanks for reading. Hope this helps clear up some things. If not, welp, at least I don't have anything left to say.