Vanilla Units: What would YOU cost them at?

[AStickInTheMud]

A "Vanilla" unit is a term from MtG that describes a creature wihtout any abilities, only stats.

Since every Heroscape unit has some form of ability, whether useful or not, I thought it would be a good thought experiment for the customs community to collaborate on how you would price a completely ability-less unit.

Without further ado, let's dive in:

Case 1: maximum viable point value

For case 1, lets consider a unit of the following stats:
Life: 1
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 1

The keen eyed among you may notice that these are the stats for Isamu who currently resides as the lowest point value in the game at 10 points. Of course we all know that Isamu typically punches above his weight for a filler unit, and his abilities aren't downsides, so we can consider these stats, or roughly equivalent stats to be worth less than 10 points.

Let's then consider another Hero unit:
Life: 4
Move: 5
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4

Stats come from Thorgrim this time around, at a cool 80 points. Obviously his two powers are very potent, and so his base stats alone shouldn't be worth those 80 points. So then, what would you need to bring this unit's point value down to before you consider it as a decent filler unit in an army that could spare the points?

Just for completeness's sake, let's also consider the current highest cost unit:
Life: 7
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 8
Defense: 4

This is Jotun's stats at 225 points.


Case 2: Minimum viable stats

For case two, let's consider the same three heroes, but this time, we will bring up the stats to match the points value.

What is the minumum stat spread that you would consider a vanilla unit at 10 points? 80? 225?

Not sure what these answers are myself, as I always seem to overcost my customs, so I figure it would be fun to dive in to this question as a community to stetch the custom makers' brain muscles.

Feel free to discuss squads as well, common or otherwise. It's a lot easier to treat some common squads' abilities as trinket text more than real abilities sometimes, especially when they seem to be always active, or not relevant in the current army build.

[MegaSilver]

I dunno if you're familiar with the Delta format, but here ya go: https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=59583

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

I dunno if you're familiar with the Delta format, but here ya go: https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=59583

I don't think this answers the question.


Long time ago there was a widely available and cheap Mage Knight archer figure that I toyed with the idea of making a vanilla unit out of. I think the idea was something like 5 Life/5 Move/5 Range/4 Attack/4 Defense at 75 points. It wouldn't have any synergies. Solid filler potential, but otherwise literally nothing special. I think it's fair, but never got around to testing it.

[AStickInTheMud]

The point delta is neat, but not really the thought experiment I wanted to bring up here. It does give a bit of insight into how certain units seem to perform in any given competitive game though.

That's also good for comparisons to a given vanilla unit, because you can say, "is this unit better than this other unit's potential synergies in my army?" which is always a good metric for a same-cost comparison. Food for thought indeed.

[Kasper]

I suppose it depends on the stats of the given unit.

A figure with 6m/1r/2A/2D shouldn't cost a lot, its almost a wasted turn. 10-20 points would fit.

A figure with 5m/1r/5A/8D would be a solid lineman, even without abilities. Could easily land in an 80-150 point range.

[Good Pig]

I could see vanilla Heroscape units being sought after by competitive player where reducing variables is a desirable thing. Without worrying about terrain dependence, defense abilities like Tough getting bypassed, losing another figure that provides synergy, etc. it becomes a lot more like a chess game. I think this is an interesting concept for sure. If it were introduced I'd hope it was done sparingly. I think Heroscape is more fun than chess for a reason. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to announce "Grenade Special Attack" and then flicking fallen Deathreavers off the board.

[AStickInTheMud]

I agree. While vanilla units could be a great source of consistency for a competitive player, I think the game is more intersting, and more fun, with tradeoffs in army composition.

After all, I could draft a generically good squad with solid stats, but it is way more fun to draft, say, the Krav Maga Agents, who are so "90's sci-fi cool" that they can dodge bullets

[Leaf_It]

Something to keep in mind is that a Vanilla unit might still have synergies. If it's a Human Champion, or a Warlord, there's squads that can bond with it, giving it more value than a unit that has no synergies at all. That would affect it's cost. A unit with 1L|4M|1R|3A|3D isn't likely to be appealing in most cases, because it's just never worth an order marker by itself. It probably wouldn't be worth more than 15 points. However if you can bond with it then it's value goes up significantly, because now it's an extra attack per order marker, instead of your only attack per order marker. With a solid bonding synergy I'd place that same unit at ~20 - 25 points.

Vanilla squads is an interesting line of thought for me, so lets look at a the Blade Gruts. They are a 4 figure, 40 point squad, with 1 ability. Their stats are 1L|6M|1R|2A|2D. Breaking that down, 1 of them is worth 10 points. But they have an ability. Orc Champion Bonding. Their value is greatly influenced from being able to bring Grimnack and the other Orc Heros with them into the fight, so what would they cost without that ability? They still have 4 attacks per turn, and they are fast enough to get decent map control, so they aren't useless. 2 Defense is really frail though, and 2 Attack isn't great either, so you'd be relying on numbers more than anything else. I'd probably drop them by ~5 - 10 points without bonding. I think a Squad of Blade Gruts with no abilities is still pretty appealing at 30 - 35 points.

[Good Pig]

Special abilities "should" always be worth something. But I don't believe it always equates to a reduction in points. There are some units that get priced primarily based on their stats and the ability while nice doesn't change the equation. Zettian Guards, Tarn Viking Warriors, Deathwalker 8000 are a few that come to mind.

Also, there are some units that are already so cheap, like Otonashi, I don't know that removing her abilities would mean she should go from 10 to 5 points. Her survivability is so low her odds of using those abilities are limited.

Bonding is definitely something that should influence the cost. The increase in cost is variable based on the selection of heroes that could be bonded with.

Also, Disengage on Blade Gruts makes them really fun and useful.

[Leaf_It]

DK 8000's ability does affect his cost in my opinion, but it is match up dependent for determining how much. On the other hand, the Zettian Guards, and the Tarn are probably not significantly worse without their abilities. The Zettian Guards should drop in price regardless, just because they are bad. The Tarn are good because of their stats, and their ability while occasionally really beneficial, isn't what usually makes them worth having.

[Good Pig]

Deathwalker 8000 special seems useful on paper, but I've never been able to use it effectively. Maybe against Venoc Vipers he'd redeem himself.

[AMIS]

In short I don't know...

From custom creation experience I would say the most vanilla figure would have 3 for all stats:

Life: 3
Move: 3
Range: 3
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

No skills...A real boring character. This would be worth about 15 points to me simply because of 3 life.
It's slow, low range, with a solid attack and defense.