Ixe's Custom Units

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The thing with special attacks is that there are no rules. Nothing is off limits. Things like the order of operations is not necessarily set, nor are the normal rules for dishing out hits. Lolth's Wrath, for example, distributes wounds unevenly between targets one at a time. Fortunately it does not allow defense dice to be rolled, but that needn't be true. One could easily imagine a special attack that allows the player to distribute skulls between targets.

Okay, I'm going to hope that the hypothetical Lloth's wrath that allows for defense will be worded more sensibly. Basically, for however you want to do it, there should be an attack defined with a certain number of hits coming at a defender at any given time. She'll just throw extra dice depending on those hits when it comes to it.

I guess if we postulate something that allows you to add on hits after defense is rolled, she'd only roll the dice for the number of hits that were in the attack at that moment. In any case, I'd put the onus on the wording of whatever special attack to work a bit cleaner.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

So I'm guessing you're using 'hits' instead of 'skulls rolled' so that she isn't disproportionately weak against Deadly Shot/Strike? Makes sense.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Ixe

Okay, I'm going to hope that the hypothetical Lloth's wrath that allows for defense will be worded more sensibly. Basically, for however you want to do it, there should be an attack defined with a certain number of hits coming at a defender at any given time. She'll just throw extra dice depending on those hits when it comes to it.

I guess if we postulate something that allows you to add on hits after defense is rolled, she'd only roll the dice for the number of hits that were in the attack at that moment. In any case, I'd put the onus on the wording of whatever special attack to work a bit cleaner.

You're probably fine. As a VC Editor, I am very sensitive to anything that would potentially limit future designs. The special attack space is definitely an important one; anything that adds restrictions to future special attacks needs to be carefully scrutinized. In this case, you are adding a restriction that the defending figure rolls defense dice only after the number of hits is fully calculated.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Scytale

You're probably fine. As a VC Editor, I am very sensitive to anything that would potentially limit future designs. The special attack space is definitely an important one; anything that adds restrictions to future special attacks needs to be carefully scrutinized. In this case, you are adding a restriction that the defending figure rolls defense dice only after the number of hits is fully calculated.

Well this custom is for an unpainted figure that has no aspirations for VC, but I don't think this is even limiting special attacks from what you're describing. Defense dice are rolled in response to an attack. That attack will have a certain number of hits attributed to it. At the moment the defense dice are rolled, she'll roll according to the number of hits. If some special attack allows for extra hits to be tacked on after defense dice are rolled, she wouldn't get to roll any more. Defense has already been resolved at that moment.

This same issue could apply to Isamu, for instance. Imagine if I had some special attack where I roll dice and then, after defense is rolled, I can choose take a wound to roll another attack die. If I attack Isamu first and roll 0 skulls, Vanish 9 will not trigger and Isamu will roll his defense normally. Then if I take the wound and roll a skull, Isamu wouldn't be able to roll for Vanish 9 since that phase has already passed through without triggering and this extra skull wouldn't retroactively trigger it. He'd be stuck with his defense which would presumably attacker to kill the ninja.

That's how I'd view it, at least. Nevertheless, official units are already marching in this same sort of triggering space enough that I am not concerned about it limiting some hypothetical future special attacks. If it truly does limit them, then they were already limited in the first place.

[Scytale]

Actually, Vanish 9 already doesn't play nicely with Lolth's Wrath. It's something we realized when working on the Quorik Warwitch's Flutter.

Such is the nature of these things sometimes.

[Ixe]

I don't love having this on my custom thread but I do want to talk about this. Maybe I'll pitch this over at VC.

Lloth's Wrath, as weird as it is, still counts as an attack. If Pelloth is engaged, all the skulls must be funneled into engaging figures first before he can pour them out elsewhere. This stems from the engagement rules from where you can only attack figures that you are engaged with. Who you are actually attacking gets chosen 1 at a time, depending on the number of dice rolled.

So let's say Isamu is engaged with Pelloth and he rolls Pelloth rolls all 3 skulls on Lolth's Wrath. The first wound he directs towards Isamu and, since Isamu can roll for Vanish 9 despite being denied defense, he can roll anyway since it technically counts as an attack of which at least 1 skull was rolled. If he succeeds, Isamu takes no damage instead moves non-adjacent and up to 4 spaces away.

Now it's a little ambiguous what happens to the wound that was coming at Isamu. Pelloth didn't exactly "inflict a wound" with that attack, but neither did Isamu receive any damage. I would be inclined to say that it was wasted, where it was "inflicted" but not "received." In this case, if Isamu was still within 2 clear sight spaces of the chosen Drow figure, this process could potentially be repeated up to two more times.

It is also possible that "inflicting a wound" is different from "damaging" a figure, similar to how life loss and damage are different in a game like Magic the Gathering. In this case Isamu would still move his 4 spaces but then promptly die to the wound on his card.

My point is is that I don't believe this is impossible to mitigate this conundrum. I do think Heroscape is due for some comprehensive rules, however. The rule books only contain the beginning of the story, just the basics for what it takes to get started and go. For a larger game with more moving parts (which Heroscaped transitioned to during production and has only furthered under Fanscape), a comprehensive set of rules is needed to set the framework for resolving problems like this and allowing for interaction in the future. We already play this game quite a bit by sussing out the implied phases within the cards, I'd just like to go one step further and formalize everything as officially, or fanscape officially, as possible.

Spoiler Alert!

Ideally you still strive away from interactions that are ambiguous or counter-intuitive, but this would be a means of resolving the rare corner case without hamstringing future design because of a few past cards.

Like the Magic Comprehensive Rules from which I'm getting this idea, it would be a rarely used resource that wouldn't need to be even referred to outside of players interested in rules or judges resolving a rules dispute.

[flameslayer93]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=48436

Would this be a start as to the comprehensive rule set you were refering to Ixe? And, I most certainly agree that we need one for little things.

Edit: I believe that Isamu wouldn't receive any damage at all because his power modifies all damage dealt to him to 0. Lolth's Wrath is a single attack, not three. The first skull does get "wasted" unfortunately.

[Ixe]

Going back to customs, here is another one for Jandar. I'm also contemplating rounding out a cycle.

This is Nazenha Vasilliovana from Pathfinder Miniatures - Reign of Winter


NAME = Liandra Icespire
GENERAL = Jandar
PLANET = Toril
SPECIES = Human
CLASS = Battle Mage
PERSONALITY = Resolute
SIZE = Medium 5
UNIQUE HERO

LIFE = 5
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 120

AVALANCHE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4. Attack 3.
When Liandra Icespire attacks with Avalanche Special Attack, she may attack 2 additional times. She cannot attack the same figure more than once. When a small or medium figure rolls defense and is not destroyed by Avalanche Special Attack, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 6 or higher, the player who controls the attacked figure must place that figure, if possible, on an empty space within two spaces of its current location, but not adjacent to Liandra. The space must be on the same level as or lower then its current location. The attacked figure never takes any leaving engagement attacks. A non-flying figure moved lower by Avalanche Special Attack can receive any falling damage that may apply.

ARCANE RIPOSTE
When Liandra Icespire rolls defense dice against a normal attack, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.


Liandra Icespire is a solemn Battle Mage ready to fight for Jandar. Her magic specializes in cryomancy, or the control of cold. She can generate blasts of snow and ice that fling those who survive about the battlefield. If the opponent manages to close in melee, she proves deadly with her sharp and icy weapons poised to slice through her enemies. Like Sharwin Wildborn, Liandra has studied potent battle magic to turn any attack against her right back on the attacker.

I'm considering making a cycle of no-synergy battle mages for each of the generals, with Sharwin already being done for Ullar. While Sharwin's Special Attack is easy to evade from doing too much damage, Liandra's avalanche is more versatile, if a bit lower range. Furthermore, it grants her the ability to push her opponents about the field. One nice feature is that she can use it to repel engaging figures and allow her to continue attacking other opponents within range. Like Sharwin, she's not actually all that tough and is difficult to protect and keep going, although I suspect she is a ton of fun if you can manage it. In case it wasn't clear, her Special attack is a mix between Augamo's Ramming and Niflheim's Ice Shards.

As always, comments are greatly appreciated.

[flameslayer93]

Avalanche is a pretty cool special attack! It could be really god in the arctic mountains.

Also, any love for Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement here? It seems like she should be good enough at moving through blizzards and deep snow. It probably wouldn't raise the cost much either.

[Ixe]

Thanks for commenting. I'm glad you like the special attack.

I considered doing some terrain based snow power, but I've decided against it for now. Space is a little tight given the special attack and, upon looking at the other cold related heroes, they don't actually avoid movement penalties on that terrain.

[IshMEL]

Hmmm.... Blue dress... Blonde... Ice powers... Could it be?

Spoiler Alert!

I am looking forward to this series of Battle Mages!

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Elsa is looking good. Though if the battlemages are meant to be a proper Magic-style cycle it seems she would need another power, to match Sharwin. Perhaps a modifier to her normal attack? So like: A special attack that hits multiple figures, a normal attack mod, and Arcane Riposte for each Battlemage. That would be a really clear link there.

Perhaps something like:

COLD HUGS
Figures attacked by not Elsa subtract 1 from their defense dice.

Not nearly as good as Shocking Grasp, but I think that works since her special attack is far better than Sharwin's.