Age of Annihilation - Backer Trend and Discussion

[Master Roshi]

Originally Posted by Hogg

I'm seeing ads on facebook. I'm making sure to "like" and post a positive comment about the game. I think those things help the algorithm and more people will see it.

Doing the Lord's work

[Master Roshi]

Originally Posted by GamerDad74

This campaign/launch really has left me scratching my head. I mean when I heard on Day 1 here on Heroscpers that Heroscape was back, I couldn't believe it and immediately told all my old HS buddies.

The game, unlike any other, we've loved, collected, played and followed for nearly two decades was back! We would finally get to see all those historical units we all knew would be amazing in 'Scape, we'd see more Marro, we'd see the new generals' factions fleshed out, and maybe we'd see some new terrain. It would be like C3V come to life! No more chasing down random miniatures, we'd have stuff designed and sculpted just for Heroscape! And we just knew Hasbro would learn from their marketing/distribution mistakes of the past.

First week. Unbelievable! That Dryborn dragon! Looks like some pretty cool things in that display. Can't wait to see much more detail. Unpainted? Hmmm, disappointing, but not insurmountable. I'm all on board!

Second week. Okay, interesting sci-fi mashup. Space pirates. Not my favorite, but I could see it fitting. Can't wait to see some Classic 'Scape next week!

End of second week. SONLEN!!!!! So good. This is going to be great. My wallet's going to hurt.

Third week. Wait. What? Warhammer?!!! I never liked or played Warhammer for a reason. Next.

Fourth week. Dryan. Nice! This definitely feels like it fits. Some great-looking designs. I bet these will be hardcore on the battlefield. My favorite so far.

Fifth week. Steampunk rodents? This is a joke, right? They must be saving the classic 'Scape stuff for the end. Historical units here we come!!

Sixth week. Warhammer bugs? I thought they said this wasn't only just to try to lure new players in but would give veteran 'Scapers plenty to identify with and feel connected to the original game we all have pined for since it ended. Maybe next week, right? At least hopefully in the launch we'll be able to buy the factions we want and leave the others on the shelves for those who like Warhammer and Redwall in their Heroscape.

Last couple of weeks. Terrain. Okay. Some interesting concepts. Looks like some really cool centerpieces.

Haslab launch. Absolute letdown. Crowdfunded. Hmmm. So we're at least going to have options. Oh. No we're not. No entry level. No tiers. No options. All or nothing. No add ons. The only real Classic 'Scape units blocked behind virtually unattainable backer levels. Terrain I mostly have a bunch of already. And I get to pay $250 for 80% I don't want or don't need. Take it or leave it.

Yeah, to say I'm disappointed is an understatement. I wish Hasbro would listen to those of us who are sharing what is keeping us from backing, but from what I've read, they aren't likely to. At least I have a bunch of the original game I love.

Sadly, I'm out.

There isn't anything intrinsically un-Heroscape about the bugs or ironclad, the animals are a bit out of left field but Heroscape already is big on variety so thats fine.
The Marro and Soulborgs look like Warhammer 40k characters already.
And I don't like the lawmen and outlaws much, nor the elves so I don't use them personally but I have friends who use them when they come over to play so I have no issue with owning them.

I'd imagine they're starting out with new factions so that its internally coherent without characters being obviously built off of synergy with old characters that only veteran players would have.
Plus the terrain add ons with the trees and ruins are great. If they're bringing back ticalla jungle, they're showing a willingness to bring back old concepts. If that is made clear to them, I'm sure they'd oblige on future sets; they certainly weren't expecting to receive such a polarizing response, but they're clearly putting effort into the design of the new characters, so I thinks its reasonable that they'd adjust now that they know the current players sensibilities. Which is why I don't think the whole project failing, and Heroscape being gone forever, is a good idea.


The content they're providing fits in with the existing heroscape content.
The magnitude of your negative response seems disproportionate to the aspects of the set that you don't like. I agree with you that Hasbro made mistakes with setting up the crowdfunding,and starting without European and Australian shipping options, but I'm surprised you dislike so much of the content despite liking the large variety of the old content and have no issue with letting the whole project fail. I have trouble understanding how so much of this content wouldn't appeal to someone who likes the old stuff

[randum]

Regarding the figure painting, it not only makes the game more immersive, but it brings it to life and makes players connect to the characters more. Without them painted, you essentially have a faceless mold of plastic that you move around. Sure, they have fine details, but you have to look closer to see them; they don't just pop out. Imagine living in a colorless world, it's just boring.

I'm still on board though, I guess I'll have to learn how to paint figurines if this crowdfunding succeeds.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Agent Minivann

I think it's an all or nothing because they are trying to see if this is going to be a viable product moving forward. A terrain only tier/option would tell them that the terrain might be a viable product, and a minis only option would tell them that the minis might be a viable product. If one or the other was disproportionally represented in the final tally they wouldn't be confident that Heroscape is a viable product on its own. It would introduce noise. They also probably want to have enough of a committed audience to pay all the initial startup costs of getting manufacturing going. After a successful campaign they will be much more likely to do things like terrain only packages, or faction packs.

While I get that logic and suspect you're 100% right that they're operating from that position, I think it's really flawed for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't think it *is* viable as a $250 offering that's mostly been marketed to the existing community

2. I don't think it would be viable on the shelves of Target or Walmart as a $250 all-or-nothing purchase either

So if their goal is to test whether they can get people to buy 8k copies of this at $250 (rather than even the same amount of overall money but with lower entry points), I think the answer they're going to get is likely "no" and it's good market research, I suppose, because I think that model would've failed on store shelves as well.

The problem is, IMO, is not that it's a bad model, but that better, more viable models exist.

Most crowdfunded games have an initial backing point for a base game around $100 for a reason, because it's right in that sweet "impulse buy" zone. And as the dragon lady taught us, let people get things they want multiples of without attaching uniques to them. No reason that couldn't have been done here with both terrain and common squad add ons.

It's a good game. I believe it's a viable game. The new product looks cool. But I think this is the wrong way to sell the game and I think it's not going well as a result, which is a shame. So in the end, I think the only thing the market test accomplished is showing it will likely fail if it's mishandled.

[orgsbane]

Originally Posted by Master Roshi

There isn't anything intrinsically un-Heroscape about the bugs or ironclad, the animals are a bit out of left field but Heroscape already is big on variety so thats fine.
The Marro and Soulborgs look like Warhammer 40k characters already.
And I don't like the lawmen and outlaws much, nor the elves so I don't use them personally but I have friends who use them when they come over to play so I have no issue with owning them.

I'd imagine they're starting out with new factions so that its internally coherent without characters being obviously built off of synergy with old characters that only veteran players would have.

I have trouble understanding how so much of this content wouldn't appeal to someone who likes the old stuff

I agree here, I understand how someone might not like factions themes personally, but the idea that they are not “Heroscapey” has baffled me from the start. The factions are designed by CVN and longtime, respected, Heroscapers members. How many community get to have direct input into the game? Avalon Hill has done so, only to be met with, “this isn’t Heroscape”!?!?. I’ve stayed out of this specific conversation for a while, but the negative response is honestly starting weigh on me, and I imagine it’s rough for the designers of these factions to see as well.

I’m not saying everyone should love every new design unconditionally. I just wish people would be a little more open minded to these new designs, and not cling so tightly to whatever interpretation they have of what Heroscape should be :/

[Knox]

30 seconds of research would have told Hasbro a $250 all or nothing package isn't viable. There are 3k members of the Heroscapers FB group - if the market is just the OG community, 8k backers is off the table. 4k is somewhat reasonable with people buying multiple and doing word-of-mouth recommendations. The only way this would have been remotely viable is if commons or terrain packs were more available, given the 'scape community's willingness to buy multiples of those.

If the market is new players, a $250 entry level buy in isn't reasonable. It's way easier to drop $99 on a game that you think might be cool than $250. There is no way on earth Hasbro gave a researched, levelheaded approach to all this. It should have been obvious in every way that this is the wrong way to go about things.

What I'm hoping for now is that if the project hits $1M or above they go ahead with the release of Vanguard edition but then cancel all expansions. I think that is the best case scenario at this point.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by Agent Minivann

I think it's an all or nothing because they are trying to see if this is going to be a viable product moving forward. A terrain only tier/option would tell them that the terrain might be a viable product, and a minis only option would tell them that the minis might be a viable product. If one or the other was disproportionally represented in the final tally they wouldn't be confident that Heroscape is a viable product on its own. It would introduce noise.

Like Bats said, I suspect you're right that this is the reason Hasbro is doing things this way, but I believe their thinking is flawed for yet another reason - I've always thought Heroscape could be a viable brand and product if it was solely about the terrain. Back when it was in production, everyone knew that there was a segment of gamers that bought Heroscape just to use the hex tiles in their various other tabletop minis/roleplaying games. Those gamers are still around and many would probably back this project if there were a terrain-only option. I think it would introduce clarity, not noise if, for example, this successfully funded with 70% of backers going with a terrain-only option and the other 30% going with the full game. It would allow the project to fund and also inform their production decisions once AoA became a retail product.

[ryguy266]

I'm so glad to see that both sides of the debate have finally reached the same conclusion: this isn't our fault, this is on Hasbro.

[rudyvalentine]

Lots of great points being made here and I appreciate the open and honest discussion. I don’t think any scaper who has been around a while doubts Craig’s ability and vision for a product he very clearly loves, or any of the other number of passionate fans from this very community that are involved in the design work..

I just am baffled at how they’re (the corporate they, probably accounting or a VP of product development) are rolling this out. They point to Heroquest but then take no cues from that very successful campaign, which is a perfect sample of what this could be. An entry level, retail tier and an all-in gotta have it all tier.

Then after raising almost $4 million and getting the game into the hands of new and old players, they’ve been cranking out expansions every few months that seem to be selling really well.

Now it is different in the sense that Heroquest was more a reprint than a reboot/relaunch initially. And I understand why recreating the original figures so many of us already have would not be a wise way to relaunch this game when there’s already an active community still playing with what they have.

But if that’s the case why no card previews leading up to or at launch? Generate some real excitement for these new units by showing us how they synergize with our old favorites. And I’m not saying we need to see 51 new cards. I know they’re still in development. But a couple? So old players can get excited about new gameplay options and so new players can see how this game actually plays?

Expecting anyone to walk up cold to this campaign and say oh yeah I’ll check this out for $250 with no rule book, no gameplay video, no real reference for what this game even is? It’s like there’s a banner at the top of the page that says, “New here? Move along, this isn’t for you.”

It’s clearly relying on this community alone to fund, but why? Why wouldn’t you want those people who have maybe heard of it, maybe kind of remember it who never played it and aren’t going to skip a car payment to buy in?

I don’t say any of this to fuel negativity and it’s not in anyway directed at CVN or our community. There is clearly a love for Heroscape in this campaign. And there’s an audience that wants to throw money at this and wants to see more and more for years to come. Just like Heroquest, except not.

[IAmBatman]

[wriggz]

I think the 1400 backers are looking at the 8000 and feeling like the thing we've wait for may not arrive. It's almost like heroscape being canned again, but this time there is FOMO on the units we can see.

I lived through that final wave of reprint and repaints, I accepted D&D as a compromise that had to be made, I bought AotP as a quasi scape. All the while supporting C3V to keep the dream alive. Now on the eve of return I'm praying for More than 6000 people to back a game I want a copy of, join a campaign that doesn't seem to follow the lessons of other big mini campaigns.

I'm still going to BGG and showing my support, Hasbro has my money, I'll click those ads and serve the algorithm, but it is had to stay positive when the dream is so close but so far.

[IAmBatman]

It is my intense (and perhaps misguided) hope that *if* this campaign fails they pay attention to the community response, make some adjustments, and try again with a better campaign model.

I'm not *expecting* that will happen, but I didn't expect any official product to ever be made or even teased again 12 years later, so who knows?