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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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#25
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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On Marvel, I don't think most of the units "break" the game (Hulk-Red Skull is fine).....but I feel Thanos and Captain America might. I don't play a ton of Mixed Marvel games, I don't think many people do, with mixing the classic scape with the 10 Marvel figures, and not also allowing C3V or C3G. It's kind of a format you only see at GenCon for a single event, and not every year has done it either (most have). Most people probably play the game nowadays either pure classic excluding C3V with Marvel banned, or classic including C3V with Marvel banned, or some C3G formats. I assume not many people restrict themselves to just classic, with Marvel allowed. Because of that, it's not a format that has an extensive list of results and stats. But yeah, in the case where Marvel is mixed with classic.....I think Thanos and Captain are potentially too good. I assume Mixed Marvel's typical point value is more than 500, like 550pt. or more. At 500pt., though, these two armies worry me: Captain America 4th Mass x4 and Thanos Rats x3 Isamu Marcu Cap+4th is pretty unbelievable, he's also I'm sure amazing with many other things, and Thanos with a rat horde where you just use Thanos until he dies, then run away the entire match until he respawns, and then repeat might be the best thing ever. I don't think that many armies can handle Thanos coming back more than once. In 500pt., Captain is probably better, but in 550pt.+, where I think Mixed Marvel probably is the usual, Thanos + Rats gets disgusting. Add MW or another set of rats at 550pt. For 600pt., it gets crazy: Thanos+ratsx4+MW+Fillers, Thanos+ratsx5+Fillers, or Thanos+ratsx4+Raelin. Maybe add Krav to the 500pt. one. Silver Surfer also has my eye as potentially crazy good. I don't know, didn't someone play SS+Ana Karithon+Raelin and it was godlike? SS/Ana combo is nuts. He also works with 4th. I put him at a 9, wasn't sure. If I were to ever make a Mixed Marvel list (don't think it's really necessary), 4th Mass would for sure go up to 10. |
#26
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Re: Hydraphobic
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I missed the last two GenCons though, so I can't speak for those years. |
#27
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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Let me clarify, I think my mindset is how the unit performs and how efficient it is when being used in the best armies possible. Heroscape is a game where you can add anything to your army, so I don't think it's accurate to rate the unit basing it on one single army, but rather, a list of very strong armies that use that unit. For example 4th Mass should be not only judged in an all valiant build (ex: 4thx5+Alastair+Eldgrim), but also in a suicide-Mass build (ex: 4thx4+Braxas). You should keep in mind weighing between both/all, because players are allowed to play both/all and have a good chance of success. Also doesn't have to be different 'types' of a faction, all valiant mass and 'suicide-mass' (as i call it) are pretty different, I also mean consider all the slight variants of, for example, top Gilbert/Knights builds (Gilbert+Knightsx5+Eldgrim, Gilbert+Knightsx4+Alastair, Gilbert+Knightsx3+Finn/Thorgrim+Krav, Gilbert+Knightsx3+Nilfheim/Zelrig, etc.). There's a lot of weighing and balancing I try to keep in mind throughout. You also want to consider not just 500pt., but 450pt.-550pt., and 400pt.-600pt. It's difficult. Isamu's a unit that I think will vary a lot between people's personal lists/views. My reasoning I've already said, but basically it's like a second chance at a win for virtually no points, and often, it works. That really convinces me he's a 10, at the top echelon. I agree with what Orc says here, fillers kind of are their own thing: Quote:
I think it's important to weigh the opinion-changes throughout the different point values for a definitive ranking, like I said above. That's why it's so difficult to rank the Gladiators, for example. Hmmm @400pt., I think some would argue Gilbert+Knightsx4+Isamu? That might be what I would go with. Finn's great too. But like I said I try to not just look at what I think is the single best, but rather weigh an array of 'best' or 'strongest' armies for the unit depending on the point values. |
#28
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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@Matthias Maccabeus , you're the master of melee, what are your thoughts on Knights vs. Heavies debate? |
#29
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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Knights 100% of the time. Only thing that I’d rather have heavies for is rats, and I guess in weird cases, WoA, but that’s Grimnak, not heavies. It’s hard to differentiate knights and heavies without Grimnak and Gilbert being in the discussion. Knights without Gilbert is like....Dwarves without Hatamoto... In all seriousness I would take knights x5 and Gilbert against anything out there and expect to win. Against rats I’d still expect to win, but I would definitely have to work for it. Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; October 17th, 2018 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Of course Heavies x 4 / Grimnak / Nerak could beat anything too...except the knights of course |
#30
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#31
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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I think having the edge into 4th, 10th, Stingers, etc. (common range) is very notable though, as when you're playing in field where everyone is trying to win (not a RtW style), you're going to run into those all over. Rats+Range or Rats in general too, of course. Both are abundant, both points are worth mentioning. But do Heavies do better into common range than Knights into Rat-builds? Not sure about that one. Conversely, are Knights into common range better that Heavies into Rat-builds? You have to weigh a lot of things. Both are equally fine into melee I think. maybe Heavies have an edge. Both have a pretty clear win into the Tier-8 and lower melee units, I don't think it's as important as weighing their matchups into the other 9s/10s. How do Heavies fair into Greenscales? And Dragons in general? I think I'd take Knights over them. Also, Trons? Both of those are worth mentioning and analyzing. It's very close, but I think I like the Knights more. |
#32
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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Heavies are fine vs common range. Play them well, you win. Mess up, you lose. Pretty standard, Knights don't have much of an edge there. Heavies into Rats is an excellent matchup (I've never lost to Rats with Heavies). Knights into common range is a fine matchup but not as good as the Heavies vs Rats. Edit: and Trons aren't really a thing anymore, but Chomp is nice there so it's pretty similar (again, maybe Knights have a tiny edge?) The only reason Knights have an edge is that they can usually get an extra squad compared to Heavies, who really want to invest the 50 in Nerak alongside Grimnak. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
Last edited by OEAO; October 18th, 2018 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Edit: except I did lose once with Heavies vs suicide Zelrig.. but he can do that against any common-heavy army |
#33
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
Exactly. That 4th defense die makes the difference. They don't need Raelin or Nerak to be tough. Knights were one of my most-lost-to units, and probably a better choice than Y x 4th Mass even in General Wars. I wonder sometimes if the conventional wisdom is wrong... and it's totally worth it to run Raelin with KoW.
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https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...5&postcount=55 Last edited by Jexik; October 19th, 2018 at 12:39 PM. |
#34
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
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Depends on the dragon too I suppose. |
#35
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)
I've been thinking a lot about the WoA after this discussion, and was thinking how they're kind of like a melee and common Krav, but the big difference is that they have no real way of forcing your opponent to face them. They have a movement of only 5, and unlike the Heavy Gruts, they only move 3 figures per turn. This means that if your opponent has any real ranged units at all, they can likely properly sequence their threats in such a way as to nullify much what the WoA set out to do. Meanwhile with 6M/7R on the Krav, they are very good at playing keep away and staying at their desired range and tempo, especially if you have any sort of screen.
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#36
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One Shield Is The Loneliest Number
I largely agree with Jexik. They are incredibly useful, but it's not always easy to ensure they're only engaging melee units. I did a rock paper scissors thing in the cluster draft at Gencon last year with them. Stingers, Ashra, and PKs. I like them a lot more in formats like bring 2 or a drafting format.
~Dysole, sad but understanding why the drafting formats aren't as likely to be big draws at Gencon My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
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