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Old October 15th, 2018, 08:00 PM
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Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

After many many hours of working on this the past three weeks, I am finally ready to post. I'm a long time competitive player of the game, I've been player competitively since 2007 (although I sucked for the first couple years lol, I was a kid) and been to the GenCon tournaments for 10 years as well as many New England tournaments (back when they were frequent), as far as my 'competitive scape career' goes. I've been wanting to compile a unit ranking list of my own for awhile now, as I have a lot of disagreements or tweaks I'd like to make to the community's original (although I think that one is still pretty accurate, especially regarding the high tier units). Seeing that Orc recently posted his, I felt like I should finally finish one and post it. So here it is, my competitive rankings/view of the figures in this game.

PLEASE READ:

My list is done differently than the usual power rankings, as I went away from the letter grades, I think they can be a bit subjective. I went with a typical Tier category list, denoting each Tier as a number 1-10, 10 being the highest tier featuring the strongest units, and 1 being the lowest tier containing the weakest units to use in competitive play. All units within each tier are similar in power, but are NOT completely equal in power. I numbered each unit within each Tier in order from strongest descending to weakest, thus I the earlier listed units I feel are stronger than the lower listed ones. Essentially, I'm listing every unit in the game from best to worst and inserting Tier breaks where I feel the largest gaps in power are. There are a lot of units in this game, so when a unit is right next to or a couple spots near another unit, they're basically equal in power. BUT, it's important to read this list as, for example, that a high-Tier5 unit is stronger than a low-Tier5 unit, but a unit directly above or below another unit in the order is about equal in strength (that mindset goes for all Tiers, of course).

(How did I go through the entire game and rank everything? I put every unit in one of the 10 Tiers where I felt they belonged, then ordered each Tier from what I felt was the strongest unit to the weakest unit. And then edited and tweaked it of course.)

It's also very important to understand that, like the other power rankings list(s), this is assuming to be in a typical competitive environment, and each unit is ranked assuming it is being used in of the best armies possible built around it for said unit to succeed, and in such armies how strong said unit performs. Obviously, if you stick pretty much any unit with Q9+Raelin+Rats you have a decent shot at winning, but that does not say the unit itself is strong. A typical competitive environment is, essentially, armies between 400-600 points, 18-24 hexes/figures limit, good tournament maps that are balanced and give the majority of styles in the game and solid shot at winning, and the usual glyph pool(s) is used (most notably consider the Glyph of Wannok (Wound) is a tournament staple nowadays, and the Glyph of Kelda (Healer) is becoming a staple (which is once wasn't). And, very powerful glyphs (attack +1, defense +2, range +4, etc.) aren't included in the random glyph pools). Obviously assuming the format is whoever destroys the opponent's army first is the win condition, too.

I'm also taking tournament results and successes into account, of course. Especially GenCon results, and the large tournaments that feature top or strong players I see posted here on the site. I'm not familiar with the online events that go on, forgive me for that, but I assume there's not anything huge results-wise I'm not seeing and it's similar to the tournaments I see in person. Also, I know a lot of the online events allow C3V/SOV units; I think later I'm going to make another Unit Tier List for the competitive play when C3V/SOV units are allowed. I'll post that in the C3V/SOV section when I make it.

Also, almost every tournament bans Marvel figures, this list is assuming Marvel figures are banned. I always think that way when I view the game, as mixing Marvel kind of breaks the game when you include Thanos, Captain America, and Silver Surfer. But I did rank each Marvel unit at the end had they be ranked if they are allowed and are submerged in the same competitive environment. The large majority of standard units in the game I feel don't really shift that much (some things do.....like healers become higher) in a mixed Marvel environment, though. But that's a different list I don't feel like making haha.

Without further ado, here is my current Unit Tier List for Heroscape!

Cleon's Unit Tier List

Last Update: 11/26/18

10:

1. Deathreavers
2. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
3. Major Q9
4. Isamu
5. Marro Warriors
6. Fen Hydra

9:

7. Marcu Esenwein
8. Sir Gilbert
9. 4th Massachusetts Line
10. Nilfheim
11. Knights of Weston
12. Heavy Gruts
13. Grimnak
14. Krav Maga Agents
15. Me-Burq-Sa
16. Major Q10
17. Marro Stingers
18. 10th Regiment of Foot
19. Phantom Knights
20. Greenscale Warriors
21. Braxas
22. Laglor
23. Kaemon Awa
24. Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
25. Blastatrons
26. Gladiatrons

8:

27. Alastair MacDirk
28. Marcus Decimus Gallus
29. Mogrimm Forgehammer
30. Black Wyrmling
31. Zetacron
32. Airborne Elite
33. Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM
34. Axegrinders of the Burning Forge
35. Darrak Ambershard
36. Roman Legionnaires
37. Zelrig
38. Agent Skahen
39. Deathchasers of Thesk
40. Cyprien Esenwein
41. Krug
42. Red Wyrmling
43. Eltahale
44. Marrden Nagrubs
45. Eldgrim the Viking Champion

7:

46. Mezzodemon Warmongers
47. Ne-Gok-Sa
48. Swog Rider
49. Marro Dividers
50. Tor-Kul-Na
51. Minions of Utgar
52. Sentinels of Jandar
53. Finn the Viking Champion
54. Arrow Gruts
55. Heirloom
56. Charos
57. Blade Gruts
58. Moltenclaw
59. Goblin Cutters
60. Sgt. Drake Alexander RotV
61. Thorgrim the Viking Champion
62. Sacred Band
63. Samuel Brown
64. Brave Arrow
65. Mohicans of the River Tribe
66. Migol Ironwill
67. Fire Elemental
68. Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
69. Mimring
70. Sir Hawthorne
71. Ogre Pulverizer
72. Warforged Soldiers
73. Sonya Esenwein
74. White Wyrmling
75. Syvarris

6:

76. Ashigaru Harquebus
77. Microcorp Agents
78. Nakita Agents
79. Venoc Vipers
80. Venoc Warlord
81. Othkurik the Black Dragon
82. Marro Drones
83. Frost Giant of Morh
84. Ornak
85. Crixus
86. Capuan Gladiators
87. Spartacus
88. Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
89. Tornak
90. Warriors of Ashra
91. Su-Bak-Na
92. Brunak
93. Omnicron Snipers
94. Omnicron Repulsors
95. MacDirk Warriors
96. Valguard
97. Zombies of Morindan
98. Arkmer
99. Ogre Warhulk
100. Protectors of Ullar
101. Guilty McCreech
102. Concan the Kyrie Warrior
103. Shurrak
104. Rhogar Dragonspine
105. Horned Skull Brutes
106. Wyvern
107. Marrden Hounds

5:

108. Blue Wyrmling
109. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM
110. Sonlen
111. Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
112. Deathwalker 8000
113. Aubrian Archers
114. Fyorlag Spiders
115. Tarn Viking Warriors
116. Iron Golem
117. Kyntella Gwyn
118. Jorhdawn
119. Chardris
120. Ulginesh
121. Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
122. James Murphy
123. Tagawa Samurai
124. Deathwalker 9000
125. Anubian Wolves
126. Sir Denrick
127. Theracus
128. Kato Katsuro
129. Kurrok the Elementalist
130. Otonashi
131. Ice Troll Berserker
132. Tandros Kreel
133. Quasatch Hunters
134. Retarius
135. Torin
136. Granite Guardians
137. Tul-Bak-Ra
138. Izumi Samurai
139. Master of the Hunt
140. Jotun
141. Siege
142. Deepwyrm Drow
143. Sir Dupuis
144. Kozuke Samurai
145. Wo-Sa-Ga
146. Tagawa Samurai Archers
147. Mindflayer Mastermind
148. Water Elemental

4:

149. Deathstalkers
150. Armoc Vipers
151. Parmenio
152. Zettian Guards
153. Ana Karithon
154. Ashigaru Yari
155. Elite Onyx Vipers
156. Drow Chainfighter
157. Dumutef Guard
158. Dzu-Teh
159. Air Elemental
160. Iskra Esenwein
161. Gurei-Oni
162. Death Knights of Valkrill
163. Warden 816
164. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
165. Earth Elemental
166. Agent Carr
167. Morsbane
168. Sharwin Wildborn
169. Wolves of Badru
170. Estivara
171. Mika Connour

3:

172. Gorillinators
173. Werewolf Lord
174. Marro Hive
175. Sujoah
176. Sudema
177. Runa the Kyrie Warrior
178. Acolarh
179. Retchets of Bogdan
180. Kumiko
181. Shaolin Monks
182. Dund
183. Evar Scarcarver
184. Greater Ice Elemental
185. Kee-Mo-Shi
186. Emirroon
187. Shades of Bleakewoode
188. Sahuagin Raider
189. Master Win Chiu Woo
190. Khosumet the Darklord

2:

191. Marro Drudge
192. The Einar Imperium
193. Major X17
194. Deadeye Dan
195. Templar Cavalry
196. Roman Archers
197. Empress Kiova
198. Erevan Sunshadow
199. Moriko
200. Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
201. Feral Troll

1:

202. Deathwalker 7000
203. Grok Riders
204. Brandis Skyhunter
205. Shiori
206. Obsidian Guards
207. Pelloth
208. Hatamoto Taro

Honestly Hatamoto Taro should probably be in a Tier 0 of his own....but I didn't want to make another tier and felt like being nice to him.

Marvel:

1. Thanos - 10
2. Captain America - 10
3. Silver Surfer - 9
4. Incredible Hulk - 8
5. Abomination - 7
6. Venom - 6
7. Spider-Man - 6
8. Iron Man - 5
9. Doctor Doom - 4
10. Redskull - 2

^This Marvel list should be read as listed in order from what I think are the strongest to weakest Marvel units and, if they are allowed in competitive play, the number given to them is the respective Tier I think they'd fall in.

I've played for a long time and with/against basically every unit, many extensively, but there are definitely a few units that were hard for me to rank that I have little experience playing. But I have seen tournament results and know good players that use these units often. These are all 5 or above units, as they're units you have a decent chance of seeing in competitive play so I want to rate them properly and was worried of where to put them (there's a tendency to care more about the top half of the list's rankings than the lower tiers, haha). Hopefully you guys can shed some light on these and help me out:

-Mezzodemon Warmongers - I don't have much experience with Mezzo's at all, I just haven't been matched up against them in tournament like at all, and I don't play them very often. I'd think they were just okay but they seem to perform really well the past several years and I obviously take that into account. I put them as a 7, wasn't sure
-Eltahale - Another unit I just have very little tournament experience with/against. I know a lot of people like her and I've heard she's like a 'mini-Nilfheim'. I ranked her as a lower 8, but could easily be higher, I'm not sure.
-Samuel Brown - I actually have never played a game with this unit haha, he was released later after the game died. Obviously he's good. I know dok has had a lot of success with him in and out of 4th Mass builds. I went with a high 7.
-Warforged Soldiers - Not much tournament experience with these guys either, I know they've done pretty well at events. I know Warforged+Raelin+Krav is strong so I couldn't put them lower than a 7. But again, I'm a little lost.
-Moltenclaw - I think he has his flaws but he has some potential to be very strong on certain lava maps (I'm always thinking about him when I build those). He also works with Greenscales which is a pretty unexplored army build; was is Arrow Grut or Vegie who did well with that build once, or maybe someone else I'm not sure. Anyways, put him as a high 6 but I'm not sure, could be a 7.
-Zombies of Morindan - Zombies are a unit I haven't played in a long long time and haven't seen them like at all in tournaments for like years, yet they're not a bad unit. The more I look at them the more I think they're pretty good, I originally had them at a 5 but bumped them up to 6 (also was considering moving Ashra up to 6. Let me know what ya think). I don't know, they could even be a low 7, haven't seen them in a while. I'm very lost on these guys.
-Several D&D-scape heroes that are a low-5 or lower - There's a lot of not so great heroes that came from the D&D waves that you don't see in competitive play, and that I have little experience with or results-knowledge of. I tried my best to rate them accurately, I like how it turned out but I definitely could be missing something.

Other Units that were difficult to rate:

-Gladiators - the Gladiators are very hard to rate. The 500pt. Steamroller is very matchup dependent but can be very good. It heavily depends on the point restriction of a tournament to rate them. In a 400pt.-490pt. environment, they really struggle to make a good army. They'd maybe be a Tier-5 or lower. In a 500pt.-540pt. tournament, you use the Steamroller (+potential filler) and it's about and high Tier-6. And in a 550pt.+ event, they become really strong because you can start adding things like MW or a 4th Capuan Squad or Krav even, and then they'd be at least a high Tier-7 or probably a Tier 8 unit. I depends entirely on the point limit of the tournament. I went with a high 6, but it obviously changes a lot.
-Trons - Trons are very good units but do depend on the figure/hex limit of the tournament. With lower start zone limitation tournaments, basically when you can't field more than 4 squads total, they're definitely not as strong. But when you have 20+ hexes to work with, they're really good. I have a huge worry of a certain build style for them to face (rats+Braxas, rats+very strong hero like Nilf or Zelrig), but I can't ignore their huge tournament success from the hands of spider_poison, lonewolf, etc. and they still pull results today. In lower hex environments (when you can only field 4 squads of them total), they're still a 9 to me, or at the very least a strong 8. But in just slightly higher hex restrictions, they're very strong.
-Fire Elemental - This unit was a huge topic of discussion when it came out, if it was too good against melee. It still is nasty, but has such little tournament stats because not many people own a ton of Fire Elementals. I personally think it's very hard to rate high because the army has a crazy flaw regarding if Kurrok dies early. It kind of perplexes me, what do you do against AE or something? But I can't deny that how powerful it is when you don't run into that scenario and in many matchups, and that dok has had good success with the Firestorm. But I can't recall anyone else. It's difficult...I went with a 7?
-Ulginesh, Kato, and Kurrok - These units are absolutely necessary to use in the builds they created, they basically are the reason the build exists, but don't attack or do much themselves really. I basically just ranked them on how I felt their respective competitive army build's power is. The Elf Wizard build is about a high Tier-5 (maybe even 6 for vegie ), the Ashigaru build is about a middle Tier-5, and the mixed/other Elemental build is about a middle Tier-5 and even though the Firestorm is much higher, he's the expoitable weakness to it that really worries me, so I went with mid-5 for Kurrok.
-Marro Hive - The Hive, when it works, is a fine unit that seems to be able in competitive play. But in the typical point restrictions, I don't see a single reason to use it over just more of the common Marro squads your using for the 160pt. slot, I feel like it will rarely ever be better and will just at best be about the same strength as just more commons. It's unbelievably map dependent, there are many maps that have a spot for the Hive but the spot is atrocious and will be a nightmare to play with. I just think that's such a huge detriment and risk that I can't rank it higher. If it's 800pt. games with large start zones on maps that accommodate it, then it's a solid unit that maybe is very abuse-able. But with what typical tournaments are with this game, the Hive just doesn't work.
-Master Woo and Empress Kiova - These two units are terrible and will not be best with their respective squads. If you want to win with a Monk or Imperium army, don't use these heroes, you don't have the points to afford them. Conversely, so in order to use Master Woo or Kiova, in my opinion you can't afford to use their squads either, which is hilarious. They're basically units you'll never ever play, but as stand alone heroes they're not the worst figures in the game. I wanted to rank them lower than where they are, but in armies where you're just using them as a stand alone hero without they're squads, I think you'll do better than with armies where you combine the heroes with their squads, in competitive play. Pretty funny, if you ask me.


I'm am very much up for discussion, debate, feedback, etc. Please comment your thoughts or suggestions! I love competitive heroscape discussion, been missing it.

Also if I forgot a unit in the list please let me know. I had forgotten Ana Karithon and Estivara in the first list I made lol.


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Last edited by Cleon; December 1st, 2018 at 10:32 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2018, 08:02 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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Old October 16th, 2018, 11:59 AM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.

Last edited by vegietarian18; October 16th, 2018 at 12:00 PM. Reason: elves tier are mid tier 7
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Old October 16th, 2018, 12:43 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

I agree with vegie that this format is excellent. SP's original listing, using the grades, was deliberately whimsical, and I think this tier structure is better suited to serious discussion.

I'd like to see the whole 9.5 tier removed, because it follows right on the heels of your presentation about this new way you're going to do things, and I also think (as vegie also suggests) you could safely put those units in Tier 9. As I understand your formula for rating units.

The order looks good to me. At the top, which is the only place I think precise placement is interesting, I'd flip the Hydra and Marcu, and I'd also drop Gilbert down some distance. He's great but I don't see why he should outstrip the Knights by a couple places, and I reject the idea that either belongs ahead of the Krav.

I'm also a fan of Eltahale, who you say you're not comfortable assessing, but I don't think of myself as a great player who should be throwing his weight around in these conversations. So that's my .

Also, I can't believe you numbered that whole list manually. Heaven help you when you want to change something, or you realize you left out some unit from Tier 8. Or whatever.

Thanks for sharing, this is very interesting.

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Old October 16th, 2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.
I have pretty big worriment when it comes to Marrden Hounds. I agree they can be pretty strong and do nice damage, when they fit into the right time and place. But they just have several things that are large hindrances I can't ignore:

-They are very map dependent. Double-spaced squads run into issues in getting into ideal positions often, and Hounds reeeally want to get powerful engagement spots with as many units as you can.
-Their ability doesn't work against soulborgs. In a metagame where so many of the top tier and winning armies contain soulborgs (rats especially, trons, Q's. And more lower stuff you'll see occasionally that is still decent like Omnicrons), not having your ability against them is a pretty big problem. That's why I really can't rate Cyprien higher than he is, despite him being so strong in many matchups.
-They're decently luck dependent. Their movement ability doesn't really help them, it's really just a setback ability. 8 movement is the norm for them, which is the usual for a two spaced squad (either 7 or , and really Wild Pack Movement just means sometimes they can't move much, which is bad. If it included something like "if you roll 15+, add 9 to their movement" or "if you roll a 19 or 20, add 11 to their movement" then it would be an interesting ability that could help you out. But as it is, it's really just "you have 8 move but a third of the time you can't move much."

That being said they're not bad, I put them as a high Tier-5. I'm not that opposed to bumping them up to Tier 6. But I don't think they should be much higher than that, they have too many issues.

Yeah Warriors of Ashra I was going back and forth between Tier 5 and 6. They're probably 6. WoA+PKs or WoA+Q9 or WoA+Range-Counter are pretty strong armies. They also are very splashable. I remember Jexik splashed them for Day 2 with his Greenscale+Nilf+Raelin army one year. That was cool.

It's interesting how you feel about the Heavies. I always give Knights the edge in my mind with their base 4 defense, that they have that no matter what or where they are on the map. I feel Heavies are a bit more map dependent, or map-area dependent I guess. But Heavies have their advantages as well. Both are really great of course. I'll see if others chime in


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Old October 16th, 2018, 05:02 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.
I have pretty big worriment when it comes to Marrden Hounds. I agree they can be pretty strong and do nice damage, when they fit into the right time and place. But they just have several things that are large hindrances I can't ignore:

-They are very map dependent. Double-spaced squads run into issues in getting into ideal positions often, and Hounds reeeally want to get powerful engagement spots with as many units as you can.
-Their ability doesn't work against soulborgs. In a metagame where so many of the top tier and winning armies contain soulborgs (rats especially, trons, Q's. And more lower stuff you'll see occasionally that is still decent like Omnicrons), not having your ability against them is a pretty big problem. That's why I really can't rate Cyprien higher than he is, despite him being so strong in many matchups.
-They're decently luck dependent. Their movement ability doesn't really help them, it's really just a setback ability. 8 movement is the norm for them, which is the usual for a two spaced squad (either 7 or , and really Wild Pack Movement just means sometimes they can't move much, which is bad. If it included something like "if you roll 15+, add 9 to their movement" or "if you roll a 19 or 20, add 11 to their movement" then it would be an interesting ability that could help you out. But as it is, it's really just "you have 8 move but a third of the time you can't move much."

That being said they're not bad, I put them as a high Tier-5. I'm not that opposed to bumping them up to Tier 6. But I don't think they should be much higher than that, they have too many issues.

Yeah Warriors of Ashra I was going back and forth between Tier 5 and 6. They're probably 6. WoA+PKs or WoA+Q9 or WoA+Range-Counter are pretty strong armies. They also are very splashable. I remember Jexik splashed them for Day 2 with his Greenscale+Nilf+Raelin army one year. That was cool.

It's interesting how you feel about the Heavies. I always give Knights the edge in my mind with their base 4 defense, that they have that no matter what or where they are on the map. I feel Heavies are a bit more map dependent, or map-area dependent I guess. But Heavies have their advantages as well. Both are really great of course. I'll see if others chime in
Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.

I don't see Soulborgs as a problem anymore. Trons have all but disappeared. Rats and Q9 you may hit once in a tourney, none of the top players are really running them so you don't have to worry about them at the top tables. Q10 is fine, but he's overrated (as is Vydar as a whole with the exception of Q9 and Krav.) I wouldn't worry about potentially hitting Omnicrons, it's probably still a 50/50 matchup for Hounds (I hear 1 or 2v5s are bad odds.)
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Old October 16th, 2018, 05:03 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

As far as my thoughts on the Hydra goes, the more I play/see games with it, the more I conclude it's just an incredibly strong unit no matter how you look at it. Which is basically the criteria for being a 10.

It's not that expensive, very strong against melee, and still strong against a lot of range, basically no bad matchups. I don't think it's very map dependent, Reach takes care of so many spots on maps. And on the flipside, running it on Road/Castle maps can be crazy good. You can also choose to have just one, or multiple. Both are powerful and spark interesting potential builds. Nasty with rats or PK's, and perfectly fine without them and in other builds.

With other top-Tier-9 units like 4th or Krav or Knights, they do have bad matchups you run into. 4th doesn't like Q9 or Q10, also Zelrig can be a bit worrisome, Krav don't like PK's which are common in competitive play now, Knights still can run into 10th and Hydras, also Charos with or without Greenscales can be annoying for them too. But the Hydra is kinda awesome no matter what.

Bottom line is, they're only 120pt. and have a large tendency to kill way more than their points, and at the same time I think are minimally chance-dependent (regarding matchups or maps). That to me is a top echelon unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I agree with vegie that this format is excellent. SP's original listing, using the grades, was deliberately whimsical, and I think this tier structure is better suited to serious discussion.

I'd like to see the whole 9.5 tier removed, because it follows right on the heels of your presentation about this new way you're going to do things, and I also think (as vegie also suggests) you could safely put those units in Tier 9. As I understand your formula for rating units.

The order looks good to me. At the top, which is the only place I think precise placement is interesting, I'd flip the Hydra and Marcu, and I'd also drop Gilbert down some distance. He's great but I don't see why he should outstrip the Knights by a couple places, and I reject the idea that either belongs ahead of the Krav.

I'm also a fan of Eltahale, who you say you're not comfortable assessing, but I don't think of myself as a great player who should be throwing his weight around in these conversations. So that's my .

Also, I can't believe you numbered that whole list manually. Heaven help you when you want to change something, or you realize you left out some unit from Tier 8. Or whatever.

Thanks for sharing, this is very interesting.
Yeah, I'm going to abolish the 9.5 category and split the two like I said if I had to. I guess I was just very reluctant to add or demote a unit from the 'top echelon' of units.

Marcu's amazing because he basically nullify's the Wound glyph completely for your army, and is also a solid cleanup figure that can definitely kill more than 20pt. Can also be used as an effective unit with Ornak, too. But, he is slightly dependent on whether you're on a lava map or not. There's also the possibility the Wound glyph happens to not be in the glyph pool or tournament, too. Overall, he's amazing. But I rate him below the Hydra, and I don't think he's quite at the very top.

Gilbert I rate higher than the Knights just because I think he's that solid of a unit. He makes the Knights what they are, also works with a plethora of good Jandar figures, and is just such a solid bundle of stats and abilities for a bondable 105pt. The Knights are amazing, but I don't know, Gilbert himself just seems so good I feel that's where his power is, even though yes Gilbert+Knights is the best build for him. I dunno, kinda hard to explain, it's almost a 'it just feels right' explanation.

I remember Jexik once bumped him up to A+ in the original rankings, and I wasn't really opposed to it. Ultimately he kept him back at A but I agreed with him that Gilbert is quite strong of a hero.

Krav are amazing but PK's counter them hard, and PK's are not a unit you don't see. Even x1 squad just for the Krav I think is a good army option and will be a bit troublesome. If the PK's didn't exist I could see them a bit higher, but I like where I have them at right now.

Eltahale is a figure I'd like some insight on, yes. She's definitely good.

Yeah it took many many hours haha. But it's something I've been wanting to do for a long time and finally just buckled down and did it.

Thanks for the comments and reading it!


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Old October 16th, 2018, 05:05 PM
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Later

Initial glance has units I think are too high or too low, but I very much like the system. I'll be back for more later with my thoughts.

~Dysole, with opinions


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Old October 16th, 2018, 05:13 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.
Ayeeee 3/4 agreement I'd say is pretty good.

Always happy to debate and discuss with ya (or anyone) too, man.


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Old October 16th, 2018, 05:20 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.
Ayeeee 3/4 agreement I'd say is pretty good.

Always happy to debate and discuss with ya (or anyone) too, man.
Once I have the time? Absolutely. Unfortunately just have time for some quick jabs .

You're insane for ranking all the units, but major props on the effort! Hell of an undertaking.

For starters, I'd reevaluate where you have Kozuke, Tandros, WoA, and Hounds (too low.) Glad/Blast is too high (above Heavies??), and Eltahale, Kaemon, and MBS should all move up in their respective tiers. Mezzos should be mid-top of tier 8, right below Romans probably. Zetacron seems high.

And the Kyrie squads, Braxas, and Laglor of course, not that we haven't had this conversation before or anything.
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Old October 16th, 2018, 06:16 PM
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I'd love to hear any or all thoughts from top/great players and spark up some discussion:

@spider_poison @MattserTruckRally @dok @Matthias Maccabeus @lonewolf @ManTrainChooChoo @scaper dude @R˙chean @Hendal @nicktheant @I.S.B.3 @infectedsloth @MajorQ23 @weesel99 @Jexik @NecroBlade @Deroche @fomox @Clarissimus @ollie @Kinseth @Bengi @The Orange Mailman @Mr Migraine @gamjuven @Dignan @CornPuff @southwest ninja @killercactus @RollItOnTop @capsocrates @Sir Heroscape @Tiny Timmy @KaBoomboomBoom

(Orc, Dysole and vegie already commented of course) (DadScaper too, have I ever played you? I believe I have but can't remember what the match was)

(There's also great old players like Kahrma, Jormi Boced, NWOjedi, Revdyer, etc. but I haven't seen them play in a long time and not sure when the last time they competed at GenCon was. Not sure if they still play or think about the game competitively but you all are welcome time chime in)

Sorry if I missed other notable players I'm sure I have, was just listing those I know off the top of my head. There are definitely some I forgot. Also, of course, if I haven't ever played you before and you don't go to GenCon or weren't a part of the New England seen I used to attend (i.e. - if you're from another region and don't attend GenCon but are a strong player) and are good players that still play/discuss, I apologize for not listing ya. Obviously feel free to comment and debate no matter who you are (well, as long as you know the game at least somewhat haha).

Also know that Vegie's Dad and Orc's Dad are solid too, if they want to chime in (do they have usernames?)

Also, I've never played in the online Heroscape scene, but I've heard there are some very strong players whom I've never met or seen play in person, but your opinions are valued to me and I'd like to mention some

@kevindola @TheSparkleInYourWater @Foudzing (I know there are probably others too, those are just the three I know are great players who crush on online)

^Hopefully I'll play you guys one day


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Last edited by Cleon; October 16th, 2018 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Took care of it for you
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Old October 16th, 2018, 07:11 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.
Ayeeee 3/4 agreement I'd say is pretty good.

Always happy to debate and discuss with ya (or anyone) too, man.
Once I have the time? Absolutely. Unfortunately just have time for some quick jabs .

You're insane for ranking all the units, but major props on the effort! Hell of an undertaking.

For starters, I'd reevaluate where you have Kozuke, Tandros, WoA, and Hounds (too low.) Glad/Blast is too high (above Heavies??), and Eltahale, Kaemon, and MBS should all move up in their respective tiers. Mezzos should be mid-top of tier 8, right below Romans probably. Zetacron seems high.

And the Kyrie squads, Braxas, and Laglor of course, not that we haven't had this conversation before or anything.
Yeah I think you know my thoughts/stance on Minions/Sentinels, Braxas, and Laglor haha. . I will consider dropping Laglor to 8 though, just because he's probably the only 9 that lacks the results, or that you don't see often at all. I still think he's really good though.

As far as the other ones you mentioned, I'll make some quick comments:

Trons: Yeah I understand Trons don't really like the formats nowadays.....but I still think they are great figures. They probably drop down to low-9/high-8 when you limit them to 16-18 figures. But when it's 20+, they're very strong. I basically have them that high because although I have not personally had as much success with them as that ranked position, I know many top players have. Spider, lonewolf, Mattser, dok. But yes, nowadays the usual formats aren't as accomodating for them. Maybe I should move them to a mid-Tier-9? Or low-Tier-9? Does that sound more accurate?

WoA: I'm going to let the list sit for like a week and then update it with some tweaks. They will move up to mid-Tier-6 I think. I was going to put them as 6 anyways but was reluctant and put them as a safe high-5.

Kozuke: Really? I always think of them as the worst of the 3 samurai squads...but all 3 are pretty equal in power I had thought. They are interesting and definitely have a different niche than the other two. I just worry if you are going to kill your 100pt. worth with them, and that they almost always die before doing so. They are interesting, pretty deadly, I could be wrong.

Tandros: I remember when this figure first came out I thought he was really good, he reminded me of Kaemon Awa. But he never performed very well in my games with him. 7 life 4 defense is really good though. Not sure, I like him at 5, I might've put him too low in that Tier I could see him at a higher position in 5. But I haven't played too many competitive games with this figure.

Hounds: Already mentioned my thoughts on them in an above post.

MBS: I had Me-Burq-Sa higher in the 9-Tier originally, but moved him down in the final list. He's a great figure, pretty much always kills more than 50pt., sometimes much more. Gives the Romans/Deathchasers an incredibly useful tool for competing. Also a fine figure outside those army types. I guess I moved him down because I felt he didn't do as much damage as those that are higher. I could see moving him up.

Kaemon Awa: The Hydra has really hurt Kaemon's frequency in competitive play, being that they're the same points and fill pretty similar roles. Originally I had him as a high 8, but I guess I had some bias in that just because he's not as common in tournaments as he once was, but that doesn't mean he's any worse. I don't see myself dropping him from 9, but I am a bit reluctant moving him that much higher.

Eltahale: Very well could be. She's one of the units I mentioned that I need some help ranking, as I haven't had enough tournament experience/knowledge with her but I know she's good.

Mezzodemons: Same thing as Eltahale. I don't see them as being as good as Romans, that seems like a stretch to me. If I do move them up to 8 they'd likely be low. But again, I need some help with these dudes so ultimately I'm pretty lenient.

Zetacron: Zetacron I think I value much more than most people. I just think he's such a good tool to snipe powerful figures, which a lot of armies need. Not that he'll kill Q9, but does he have a good chance of dealing much needed damage to him? yes. Also I just think he's very likely to kill more that 60pt. And if not, he'll probably kill his points worth of commons at the least. He's definitely not a 9, but I value him at a high 8. Most players don't though, so I'm open to some change. Maybe it's just because he's one of my personal favorite figures haha

And it was quite the undertaking indeed lol. It took me about 3 weeks.


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