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  #13  
Old October 16th, 2018, 10:27 PM
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Dysole Dysole is offline
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Tiers for Fears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post

Cleon's Unit Tier List

10:

1. Deathreavers I think they're below Rae and Q as I feel I have the most answers
2. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
3. Major Q9
4. Isamu
5. Marro Warriors I think they're better than Isamu
6. Fen Hydra

9:

7. Marcu Esenwein
8. Sir Gilbert Good, but this feels a little high. I put this with the other bonders.
9. 4th Massachusetts Line
10. Nilfheim
11. Knights of Weston
12. Krav Maga Agents
13. Blastatrons
14. Gladiatrons
15. Heavy Gruts
16. Grimnak
17. Me-Burq-Sa
18. Major Q10
19. Marro Stingers
20. 10th Regiment of Foot
21. Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider Orc Raelin feels a touch too high.
22. Greenscale Warriors
23. Braxas
24. Phantom Knights I think they should swap with Orc Raelin
25. Laglor
26. Kaemon Awa

8:

27. Alastair MacDirk
28. Marcus Decimus Gallus
29. Mogrimm Forgehammer The relative value of these three change a lot with who they're bonding with
30. Black Wyrmling
31. Zetacron
32. Airborne Elite
33. Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM
34. Axegrinders of the Burning Forge
35. Darrak Ambershard A smidge too high
36. Roman Legionnaires
37. Zelrig
38. Agent Skahen
39. Deathchasers of Thesk Honestly, I think they belong a tier up
40. Cyprien Esenwein
41. Krug
42. Red Wyrmling
43. Eltahale
44. Marrden Nagrubs They're essential for a hivelord build, but I think they're worse than Stompy
45. Eldgrim the Viking Champion

7:

46. Ne-Gok-Sa This feels way too low for as tanky he can be
47. Swog Rider
48. Marro Dividers A bit too high. Getting key divides can really shift things
49. Samuel Brown Solid, but I think a bit too high
50. Tor-Kul-Na
51. Minions of Utgar
52. Sentinels of Jandar
53. Finn the Viking Champion
54. Arrow Gruts
55. Heirloom Probably should be higher. That special is good.
56. Charos
57. Sacred Band Um. wut. I mean they don't suck, but this feels a bit too high.
58. Blade Gruts
59. Warforged Soldiers
60. Goblin Cutters
61. Mezzodemon Warmongers Both of these squads are better than several you've put on here. They can be absolutely brutal against armies lacking specials
62. Sgt. Drake Alexander RotV
63. Thorgrim the Viking Champion I'd swap him and Hawthorne
64. Brave Arrow
65. Mohicans of the River Tribe
66. Migol Ironwill
67. Fire Elemental
68. Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
69. Sir Hawthorne
70. Ogre Pulverizer
71. Sonya Esenwein Probably should be a tier down
72. White Wyrmling
73. Mimring

6:

74. Microcorp Agents
75. Nakita Agents
76. Moltenclaw Should be a tier up
77. Venoc Vipers
78. Venoc Warlord
79. Marro Drones
80. Frost Giant of Morh Arguably should be a tier up.
81. Syvarris Also tier up. 9 range and double attack.
82. Ornak
83. Crixus
84. Capuan Gladiators
85. Spartacus
86. Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
87. Su-Bak-Na
88. Iron Golem Tier down. Big attack but really nothing else.
89. Brunak
90. Omnicron Snipers
91. Omnicron Repulsors
92. MacDirk Warriors
93. Ashigaru Harquebus
94. Valguard This squad and this hero are massively underrated in my opinion.
95. Arkmer
96. Ogre Warhulk
97. Protectors of Ullar
98. Guilty McCreech
99. Concan the Kyrie Warrior
100. Tornak Also a bit underrated. Up with gladiators.
101. Othkurik the Black Dragon
102. Shurrak
103. Rhogar Dragonspine
104. Horned Skull Brutes I'd move them ahead of the heroes at least.
105. Blue Wyrmling I'm always disappointed.
106. Wyvern
107. Zombies of Morindan I'd move them up in this tier at least.

5:

108. Warriors of Ashra Move it up
109. Marrden Hounds Figure limits make them much better as opposed to hex limits
110. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM Should be further down
111. Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
112. Deathwalker 8000
113. Aubrian Aubrien Archers
114. Fyorlag Spiders
115. Tarn Viking Warriors
116. Kyntella Gwyn
117. Jorhdawn
118. Chardris
119. Ulginesh
120. Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
121. James Murphy I personally think Murphy is better than Shotgun
122. Tagawa Samurai I'd put them ahead of the elves
123. Deathwalker 9000
124. Anubian Wolves
125. Sir Denrick
126. Theracus
127. Kato Katsuro
128. Kurrok the Elementalist Birth of these should arguably be in the tier above or at least mixed with the elves
129. Otonashi Honestly, she's a lot better in any format where you play an opponent army, but this still feels low
130. Ice Troll Berserker
131. Quasatch Hunters
132. Sonlen
133. Retarius Too high.
134. Torin
135. Granite Guardians Should be higher
136. Tul-Bak-Ra
137. Izumi Samurai
138. Master of the Hunt
139. Jotun
140. Siege
141. Deepwyrm Drow
142. Sir Dupuis
143. Kozuke Samurai I think they're even with Izumi
144. Tandros Kreel Kreeloy Jenkins should be higher. Dude's a tank.
145. Wo-Sa-Ga
146. Tagawa Samurai Archers
147. Mindflayer Mastermind This is fine. I just remember being very disappointed with my MFM on fire isles. I just had to bring it up.
148. Water Elemental

4:

149. Armoc Vipers
150. Parmenio
151. Zettian Guards
152. Ana Karithon
153. Ashigaru Yari
154. Deathstalkers Like hounds, go up a tier with figure limits
155. Elite Onyx Vipers
156. Dumutef Guard
157. Dzu-Teh
158. Air Elemental
159. Iskra Esenwein
160. Gurei-Oni
161. Death Knights of Valkrill
162. Warden 816
163. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
164. Earth Elemental
165. Agent Carr
166. Morsbane Should be higher
167. Sharwin Wildborn
168. Wolves of Badru
169. Drow Chainfighter Also most disappointing 8 when I had a DC on shadow next to lava. Should be up a tier.
170. Estivara
171. Mika Connour

3:

172. Werewolf Lord
173. Marro Hive I think it should be up higher, especially in games that can go to time.
174. Sujoah
175. Sudema Tier 10. Best figure in the game. :P
176. Runa the Kyrie Warrior
177. Gorillinators Yes specials wreck them, but play them against something without specials and they can be brutal. Up a tier
178. Acolarh
179. Retchets of Bogdan
180. Kumiko
181. Shaolin Monks
182. Evar Scarcarver
183. Greater Ice Elemental
184. Kee-Mo-Shi
185. Khosumet the Darklord Down a tier. Just having the most obviously false bio in the game should do that.
186. Emirroon
187. Shades of Bleakewoode
188. Dund Dünd
189. Sahuagin Raider
190. Master Win Chiu Woo

2:

191. Marro Drudge
192. The Einar Imperium
193. Major X17
194. Deadeye Dan
195. Templar Cavalry
196. Roman Archers
197. Empress Kiova
198. Erevan Sunshadow
199. Moriko
200. Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
201. Feral Troll

1:

202. Deathwalker 7000
203. Grok Riders Worst common squad in the game.
204. Brandis Skyhunter Needs to be up a tier. Not good, but has range and at least one ability that comes into play often.
205. Shiori
206. Obsidian Guards
207. Pelloth
208. Hatamoto Taro

Honestly Hatamoto Taro should probably be in a Tier 0 of his own....but I didn't want to make another tier and felt like being nice to him.

Marvel:

1. Thanos - 10
2. Captain America - 10
3. Silver Surfer - 9
4. Incredible Hulk - 8
5. Abomination - 7 Worse Hulk and with no range.
6. Venom - 6
7. Spider-Man - 6 Spider sense is so annoying
8. Iron Man - 5 Double attack is good
9. Doctor Doom - 4
10. Redskull - 3

^This Marvel list should be read as listed in order from what I think are the strongest to weakest Marvel units and, if they are allowed in competitive play, the number given to them is the respective Tier I think they'd fall in.:

-Mezzodemon Warmongers - I don't have much experience with Mezzo's at all, I just haven't been matched up against them in tournament like at all, and I don't play them very often. I'd think they were just okay but they seem to perform really well the past several years and I obviously take that into account. I put them as a 7, wasn't sure Specials hurt them a fair bit, but man they can hold a position if you don't have them.
-Eltahale - Another unit I just have very little tournament experience with/against. I know a lot of people like her and I've heard she's like a 'mini-Nilfheim'. I ranked her as a lower 8, but could easily be higher, I'm not sure. That's about right. I've never been disappointed with her.
-Samuel Brown - I actually have never played a game with this unit haha, he was released later after the game died. Obviously he's good. I know dok has had a lot of success with him in and out of 4th Mass builds. I went with a high 7. He's very useful, but that feels high
-Warforged Soldiers - Not much tournament experience with these guys either, I know they've done pretty well at events. I know Warforged+Raelin+Krav is strong so I couldn't put them lower than a 7. But again, I'm a little lost. Warforged especially with Raelin tend to be really good against what you're fighting or really bad against it.
-Moltenclaw - I think he has his flaws but he has some potential to be very strong on certain lava maps (I'm always thinking about him when I build those). He also works with Greenscales which is a pretty unexplored army build; was is Arrow Grut or Vegie who did well with that build once, or maybe someone else I'm not sure. Anyways, put him as a high 6 but I'm not sure, could be a 7. Molty is good. Single space and a very flexible special work really well.
-Zombies of Morindan - Zombies are a unit I haven't played in a long long time and haven't seen them like at all in tournaments for like years, yet they're not a bad unit. The more I look at them the more I think they're pretty good, I originally had them at a 5 but bumped them up to 6 (also was considering moving Ashra up to 6. Let me know what ya think). I don't know, they could even be a low 7, haven't seen them in a while. I'm very lost on these guys. Zombies aren't amazing, but they're a good solid unit. I think they're comparable to Ashra, but unlike Ashra if you commit to zombies you gotta commit all the way
-Several D&D-scape heroes that are a low-5 or lower - There's a lot of not so great heroes that came from the D&D waves that you don't see in competitive play, and that I have little experience with or results-knowledge of. I tried my best to rate them accurately, I like how it turned out but I definitely could be missing something.

Other Units that were difficult to rate:

-Gladiators - the Gladiators are very hard to rate. The 500pt. Steamroller is very matchup dependent but can be very good. It heavily depends on the point restriction of a tournament to rate them. In a 400pt.-490pt. environment, they really struggle to make a good army. They'd maybe be a Tier-5 or lower. In a 500pt.-540pt. tournament, you use the Steamroller (+potential filler) and it's about and high Tier-6. And in a 550pt.+ event, they become really strong because you can start adding things like MW or a 4th Capuan Squad or Krav even, and then they'd be at least a high Tier-7 or probably a Tier 8 unit. I depends entirely on the point limit of the tournament. I went with a high 6, but it obviously changes a lot. This sound accurate to me.
-Trons - Trons are very good units but do depend on the figure/hex limit of the tournament. With lower start zone limitation tournaments, basically when you can't field more than 4 squads total, they're definitely not as strong. But when you have 20+ hexes to work with, they're really good. I have a huge worry of a certain build style for them to face (rats+Braxas, rats+very strong hero like Nilf or Zelrig), but I can't ignore their huge tournament success from the hands of spider_poison, lonewolf, etc. and they still pull results today. In lower hex environments (when you can only field 4 squads of them total), they're still a 9 to me, or at the very least a strong 8. But in just slightly higher hex restrictions, they're very strong. Yep although playing them separately weakens their power level, but also changes the way you play them.
-Fire Elemental - This unit was a huge topic of discussion when it came out, if it was too good against melee. It still is nasty, but has such little tournament stats because not many people own a ton of Fire Elementals. I personally think it's very hard to rate high because the army has a crazy flaw regarding if Kurrok dies early. It kind of perplexes me, what do you do against AE or something? But I can't deny that how powerful it is when you don't run into that scenario and in many matchups, and that dok has had good success with the Firestorm. But I can't recall anyone else. It's difficult...I went with a 7? That feels about right. They can be very devastating.
-Ulginesh, Kato, and Kurrok - These units are absolutely necessary to use in the builds they created, they basically are the reason the build exists, but don't attack or do much themselves really. I basically just ranked them on how I felt their respective competitive army build's power is. The Elf Wizard build is about a high Tier-5 (maybe even 6 for vegie ), the Ashigaru build is about a middle Tier-5, and the mixed/other Elemental build is about a middle Tier-5 and even though the Firestorm is much higher, he's the expoitable weakness to it that really worries me, so I went with mid-5 for Kurrok. I see them about equally as they can all do powerful things.
-Marro Hive - The Hive, when it works, is a fine unit that seems to be able in competitive play. But in the typical point restrictions, I don't see a single reason to use it over just more of the common Marro squads your using for the 160pt. slot, I feel like it will rarely ever be better and will just at best be about the same strength as just more commons. It's unbelievably map dependent, there are many maps that have a spot for the Hive but the spot is atrocious and will be a nightmare to play with. I just think that's such a huge detriment and risk that I can't rank it higher. If it's 800pt. games with large start zones on maps that accommodate it, then it's a solid unit that maybe is very abuse-able. But with what typical tournaments are with this game, the Hive just doesn't work. I think it's sightly too low but agree that often it's better to just have the squads
-Master Woo and Empress Kiova - These two units are terrible and will not be best with their respective squads. If you want to win with a Monk or Imperium army, don't use these heroes, you don't have the points to afford them. Conversely, so in order to use Master Woo or Kiova, in my opinion you can't afford to use their squads either, which is hilarious. They're basically units you'll never ever play, but as stand alone heroes they're not the worst figures in the game. I wanted to rank them lower than where they are, but in armies where you're just using them as a stand alone hero without they're squads, I think you'll do better than with armies where you combine the heroes with their squads, in competitive play. Pretty funny, if you ask me. Hey I won a Gencon main event game with Kiova and EI. Stressing of which, I do need to get my game reports up.
Comments are in bold.

~Dysole, who would've done fun colors if she wasn't posting from her phone


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  #14  
Old October 17th, 2018, 03:05 AM
Cleon's Avatar
Cleon Cleon is offline
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

Thanks for the comments, Dysole.

I'll try to respond to each...

Rats: Yeah I mean rats and Raelin and Q9 are definitely the best three units in the game, I can see an argument for each of them as the best. Personally I think it's down to rats and Raelin, but Q9 is the best thing that, ya know, kills things in the game. He doesn't have any bad matchups or anything, is basically good against everything, and doesn't really care about the map. Not sure, maybe I put him under the other two because I always fear the offchance that he can whiff a big attack and you lose the 180pt.? I don't know.....he's amazing too haha. I put rats above Raelin because I think they are good in every single game, every map, and with any unit. The only time rats might have a 'bad' situation, is if you are in the rare occasion where you're up against samurai or charos and have to attack with them haha. But you should have other units in your army for the attacks (rats/Taelord is a pretty good army though). Raelin's good with every unit too, but I do feel there are some units that are too mobile or want to cover most of the map that in some cases don't want her. Also there are times where a thing like AE kills Raelin early, that doesn't ever happen with the rats. Zelrig can't wipe them all out as easily as other commons.

But yeah, Raelin's stupid good and versatile too, I'm nit picking pretty hard with it. I'm cool with her being the best as well, but I just personally think rats the tiniest bit better. It doesn't bother me at all when people say she's the best in the game though

MW: Yeah MW are damn good for 50pt. and probably the best endgame unit for the points, excluding mr. red ninja. Isamu to me just almost always kills way more than 10pt., and if he doesn't, then it's a 10pt. figure loss that you just added to your army at the end basically for free. He's basically a unit that's just "Oh, you lost the game, well see if you can still win with this annoying ninja!" and he often has a good chance in doing so. Both are like second chance wins, it's just that MW you need some points for.

Gilbert: I already wrote about Gilbert. It's hard to explain, it just feels right to put him up there. The best bonding hero imo

Nerak: I thought I may be putting Nerak a tad too high. Wasn't sure. There's really nothing bad about him, also works with not only Heavies, but also Deathchasers, Blades, and Arrow Gruts. Dok used him in addition with Spider's classic Arrow Grut army and it worked really nicely.

PK's: I'm glad you also think the PK's are great units. I think just the fact they counter Krav, 4th, and 10th so well merits them being a 9 unit. Super versatile, and are all over GenCon since their release pulling results.

Three bonding heroes: Yeah but I felt they were pretty much always great. Alastair works with Knights (and MacDirks! ) and is solid with Mass too, and honestly is pretty nice on his own. Marcus is just a bundle of good cheerleader abilities, and also a decent hero to get into the action with 6 life and the attack boost. Romans, 10th, Romans/10th, Greeks, Greeks/10th, 4th even. Mogrimm is a beast all round and very useful for the Dwarves and Romans. Probably not that bad on his own too.

Darrak: Wasn't sure, felt like him and the Axegrinders go hand and hand. Always think of him as the same power as them. Could go down I suppose.

Deathchasers: Interesting. I like them a lot but I felt the 3-squad was more of a hindrance than their 4 attack was a plus, when comparing them to the other bonding melee squads. They're great units though, I love the heroes they work with. Maybe they should be higher. Not sure about bumping them up to the next tier, though.

Nagrubs: I trust dok's opinion on TKN/grubs more than anyone's, as that's like his signature army, and not many others play it. He said he thinks grubs are probably higher than TKN, and what really makes the army shine. I put them a tier up, but near the bottom of it. TKN I put a high 7. I'm a little worried for TKN on the map dependency, he can definitely get screwed over on certain maps. Nagrubs can help you a little bit on bad maps, they're kinda like rats. Not sure if putting the Grubs in the next tier was the right call, I'll wait to see if dok can chime in on this.

Ne-Gok-Sa: Was considering 8 for him. I like him a lot, he sure is a tank. Always having the threat of Mindshackle is so nice.

Marro Dividers: On paper I would agree. They don't appear to be as strong as I put them, but they always overperform when I see them at tournaments and in my own games compared to how I think they would perform. I'm pretty convinced they're a high 7. Dividing lets them hold and conquer positions, which is so huge in Heroscape. Shout out to Raelin.

Samuel Brown: Really wasn't sure. He does give 4th Mass a special attack though. :P

Heirloom: The Ash brothers/family convinced me he's a solid unit. Maybe I should put him higher. Do you think he's a low 8?

Sacred Band: I disagree. I think you never see them because basically Romans are just better (also they're kinda more expensive figures to own), but they're actually pretty good. Bonding 4 squad with Marcus and Valguard. Can add Parmenio if you're feeling optimistic and can always use 10th and AE too. Also aren't completely secluded to discipline with Parmenio, could add some Krav...not that Parmenio's that great haha.

Cutters: ISB3 is nasty with them, I rememberFilthytheClown did very well with them before. They can be, I agree, but they are sooo bad against the SA's. Q9, Q10, Nilfheim, White Wyrmlings, Laglor, Blue Wyrmlings, and on the offchance you run into DW8K, just massacre these guys. I remember playing a game with cutters against several White Wyrmlings and I couldn't do anything. Zelrig, Mimring, and Brunak are probably worrisome too. I just feel they have too many potential figures to face that completely destroy them, the first three of which I mentioned are quite common in competitive play, and the wyrmlings aren't super rare to face. It's hard for me to justify placing them any higher with these units out there.

Mezzos: Like I said I'm lost on these guys. They could very well be higher, they're one unit I have minimum experience with, and they've had some good results in recent years.

Thorgrim: I like Thorgrim. His defense boost makes him a target, then you get his boost permanently for something (4 def Krav or MW is tasty). He's a solid hero to bond with in his own right, too, 3/4 with 4 life = not bad. I don't trust Hawthorne haha, his stab in back always freaks me out. But yeah he's solid too. Maybe I'll put him a few spots higher.

Sonya: Makes Cyprien even more brutal in his good matchups, but is almost a waste in his bad matchups. Only 45pt. though and could be a decent cleanup against scattered melee in the endgame. I think a low 7 suits her. But not completely opposed to a high 6.

Moltenclaw: Moltenclaw's cool. I think him and Mimring are pretty underrated. Greenscales make every dragon have some nice potential. I wasn't sure, will most likely move him up to where Mimring is. Maybe even higher. He was another I wanted some help ranking.

Frost Giant: Was going back and forth between 6 and 7. My cousin loves this figure and plays him every chance he gets, so I've seen him in action quite a bit. He's a solid figure that was originally overlooked.

Syvarris: I love Syvarris, ran him in teams once. 9 range is so nice. I just really worry about his 2def/4life to rank him higher. Phantom Knights exist and aren't afraid. Still, a great sharpshooter. I'll consider it.

Iron Golem: I might be overrating this figure but I just love the fact he's such a thorn for Q9, Q10, and others alike. I love adding him to armies who fear the Q's to give them something to use in my home games. He could be lower though.

Ashigaru Harquebus: I agree they're very underrated and underused. They don't need to be played with Kato. I do always worry about their base 1 defense though. Could see them as a high 6, not sure if they'll graduate to 7. Maybe.

Valguard: I agree too, again, underrated/underused. Mid 6 seems right for him.

Tornak: I agree. He's not a bad option with the melee gruts. Low 6 might be too low.

HSB: These guys on paper look pretty good but always underperform for me, and seem to for others too. Low 6 feels right.

Blue Wyrmling: Not a bad figure. All wyrmlings bond with each other so you can always splash one or two if you want to. The worst wyrmling yes, but is still usable with the others. For that, I put him with the 6's.

Zombies: Yeah I was lost on these as well. Will most likely move them up. Wanted to hear insight from you all for them.

WoA: Will do.

Marrden Hounds: See my other post.

Raelin SotM: Is never played because Raelin RotV is so much better, but I think she's pretty good in her own right. Just makes you wish you were using the OG one.

Murphy: I view them as the same power. Just gave the edge to Johnny because you can fit him in lower point slots. But I don't really care which is on top.

Tagawa: I don't disagree. Tagawa can be beasts when they get going. My dad plays them all the time they're one of his favorites.

Kurrok: Wasn't exactly sure. But the huge exploitable weakness of killing Kurrok early in Elemental builds always worries me. I'm reluctant to rank him higher.

Otonashi: I don't think Otonashi's very good but it's hard for me to rate a 10pt. figure low.

Retarius: I disagree. I think Retarius is pretty okay, just blatantly the worse option to Crixus, so he's never played. In 600pt. games you might see him partner with Crixus. I don't think that's that bad.

GG's: One of my favorite units in the game and I'm glad you want them higher. I was worried to rank them higher, trying to avoid bias in my affection for them. Not opposed to it.

Kozuke: Yeah they are probably more on the Izumi's level.

Tandros: See my other post on him. I actually don't have too many games with him, either. Not sure if he's more than a 5 though.

Mindflayer: At first I rated him a lot lower but then looked at his card again, and he's not bad. A fun figure for sure.

Deathstalkers: I was pleasantly surprised with how well you and dok did at GenCon my last year I went. They can be a nice wall for your range. Do you think I should bump them up to 5?

Morsbane: He's actually pretty good. Can be a clutch tool for matchups. I don't think he's more than a 4 though.

Question: Does morsbane's ability work after any of your turns, or just when you take a turn with Morsbane? I always thought you needed to take a turn with him, but it does just say 'the turn'. If so he probably should be higher.

Drow Chainfighter: Not sure if I'll put a single turn common hero more than a 4. But he does have good survivability. Maybe I should. I know Matthias would enjoy me putting him higher.

Hive: I already said my feelings on the Hive.....I just don't think it works nor is at all worth the risk.

Sudema: I think Sudema and Runa are pretty underrated figures

Gorillinators: Not sure I agree. Same deal as the Cutters.....but they're more than twice the cost per figure. They have their ups sometimes but it's miserable against those SA's. Still, they have synergy with good figures and are a ranged squad. I'll have to think about it.

Khosumet: LOL I remember that bio. The figure turns out to have no defensive ability and has 3def/3life hahaha. Honestly, I think they messed up and meant to add some kind of shield theme ability like Tough but forgot to. He's silly. I put him higher just because he makes the Anubians safe, and I really like the Anubians as figures. He could be lower though.

Grok Riders: I think Obsidians are worse. But yes they're horrendous.

Brandis Skyhunter: I disagree. He's just a slightly better Pelloth with one more health and 10 less points. He has an offchance of running into a flying heavy matchup, but even then I don't think he's doing much to Sentinels or Minions. His range is too short to consider him a Raelin killer, which was the intention for him. Pelloth also has an offchance of getting a shadow space map, which I was weighing when comparing the two. I think both are two of the worst figures in the game.

Abomination - I was considering putting him an 8 with Hulk, but I like the Hulk's threat of really killing pretty much anything in one hit when he's raged up. I value that a lot, and think Hulk+Kelda or Rhogar could be a nasty build. Abomination works too, but not as effective in my opinion. Still, might be a low 8. With him you get 50pt. to spare, and Marro Warriors are too sexy.

Spider-Man: Yes.

Iron Man: Yes yes.

You won an event with Kiova and IE?!

phew, that was a doozy. Alright I'm off to bed, will discuss more tomorrow.


Cory, Trevor: Smokes.

Last edited by Cleon; October 17th, 2018 at 03:36 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 03:54 AM
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Quick Responses

Real quick.

I'll defer to dok as well on the grub thing too. I'd just never heard him say so explicitly.

I've played cutters and Wyrmlings a lot. I almost never feel like I want to bring blue as compared to the others. Cutters are really good if you bring in something to kill the special attackers and given their cheapness you usually can.

You have to take a turn with Morsbane to use his power, but it can cripple some units.

I brought gnators and a bunch of 10th to a bring 2 at Gencon last year. It was pretty brutal watching people try to kill the gorillas with 10th.

And I didn't win a tournament, just a game (Round 4 of the main event when I had to beat my Templar, Raelin, 4th build with swarm Rae, EI, and Kiova; one of the most intense games I've ever played)

~Dysole, who should've been asleep long ago


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Old October 17th, 2018, 08:15 AM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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Also, almost every tournament bans Marvel figures, this list is assuming Marvel figures are banned. I always think that way when I view the game, as mixing Marvel kind of breaks the game when you include Thanos, Captain America, and Silver Surfer. But I did rank each Marvel unit at the end had they be ranked if they are allowed and are submerged in the same competitive environment. The large majority of standard units in the game I feel don't really shift that much (some things do.....like healers become higher) in a mixed Marvel environment, though. But that's a different list I don't feel like making haha.
Personally I don't think the official Marvel units break the game. Change it, yes, but break it, no. (Although I do kinda wish Cap was at least 230, and you could still play Cap, 3x 4th, Sam [Falcon?], which is still really strong.) I do completely agree however that it's not worth making an entire new list just for those 10 figures, haha.

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I'd love to hear any or all thoughts from top/great players

...

@Deroche
Pick one.


I think your list looks pretty good overall. I'm personally not too interested in getting into the nitpicking between so many units, so I'll leave that to more capable players such as yourself with more interest/investment in competitive 'scape.

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  #17  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:50 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.
Ayeeee 3/4 agreement I'd say is pretty good.

Always happy to debate and discuss with ya (or anyone) too, man.
Once I have the time? Absolutely. Unfortunately just have time for some quick jabs .

You're insane for ranking all the units, but major props on the effort! Hell of an undertaking.

For starters, I'd reevaluate where you have Kozuke, Tandros, WoA, and Hounds (too low.) Glad/Blast is too high (above Heavies??), and Eltahale, Kaemon, and MBS should all move up in their respective tiers. Mezzos should be mid-top of tier 8, right below Romans probably. Zetacron seems high.

And the Kyrie squads, Braxas, and Laglor of course, not that we haven't had this conversation before or anything.
Yeah I think you know my thoughts/stance on Minions/Sentinels, Braxas, and Laglor haha. . I will consider dropping Laglor to 8 though, just because he's probably the only 9 that lacks the results, or that you don't see often at all. I still think he's really good though.

As far as the other ones you mentioned, I'll make some quick comments:

Trons: Yeah I understand Trons don't really like the formats nowadays.....but I still think they are great figures. They probably drop down to low-9/high-8 when you limit them to 16-18 figures. But when it's 20+, they're very strong. I basically have them that high because although I have not personally had as much success with them as that ranked position, I know many top players have. Spider, lonewolf, Mattser, dok. But yes, nowadays the usual formats aren't as accomodating for them. Maybe I should move them to a mid-Tier-9? Or low-Tier-9? Does that sound more accurate?

WoA: I'm going to let the list sit for like a week and then update it with some tweaks. They will move up to mid-Tier-6 I think. I was going to put them as 6 anyways but was reluctant and put them as a safe high-5.

Kozuke: Really? I always think of them as the worst of the 3 samurai squads...but all 3 are pretty equal in power I had thought. They are interesting and definitely have a different niche than the other two. I just worry if you are going to kill your 100pt. worth with them, and that they almost always die before doing so. They are interesting, pretty deadly, I could be wrong.

Tandros: I remember when this figure first came out I thought he was really good, he reminded me of Kaemon Awa. But he never performed very well in my games with him. 7 life 4 defense is really good though. Not sure, I like him at 5, I might've put him too low in that Tier I could see him at a higher position in 5. But I haven't played too many competitive games with this figure.

Hounds: Already mentioned my thoughts on them in an above post.

MBS: I had Me-Burq-Sa higher in the 9-Tier originally, but moved him down in the final list. He's a great figure, pretty much always kills more than 50pt., sometimes much more. Gives the Romans/Deathchasers an incredibly useful tool for competing. Also a fine figure outside those army types. I guess I moved him down because I felt he didn't do as much damage as those that are higher. I could see moving him up.

Kaemon Awa: The Hydra has really hurt Kaemon's frequency in competitive play, being that they're the same points and fill pretty similar roles. Originally I had him as a high 8, but I guess I had some bias in that just because he's not as common in tournaments as he once was, but that doesn't mean he's any worse. I don't see myself dropping him from 9, but I am a bit reluctant moving him that much higher.

Eltahale: Very well could be. She's one of the units I mentioned that I need some help ranking, as I haven't had enough tournament experience/knowledge with her but I know she's good.

Mezzodemons: Same thing as Eltahale. I don't see them as being as good as Romans, that seems like a stretch to me. If I do move them up to 8 they'd likely be low. But again, I need some help with these dudes so ultimately I'm pretty lenient.

Zetacron: Zetacron I think I value much more than most people. I just think he's such a good tool to snipe powerful figures, which a lot of armies need. Not that he'll kill Q9, but does he have a good chance of dealing much needed damage to him? yes. Also I just think he's very likely to kill more that 60pt. And if not, he'll probably kill his points worth of commons at the least. He's definitely not a 9, but I value him at a high 8. Most players don't though, so I'm open to some change. Maybe it's just because he's one of my personal favorite figures haha

And it was quite the undertaking indeed lol. It took me about 3 weeks.
Could you cite where you’re seeing that the Hydra has hurt the amount that Kaemon sees play? Not true at least at GenCon.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 02:14 PM
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Hydraphobic

I mean I've seen a lot more hydras than Kaemons at Gencon. It seems reasonable to assume Kaemon would be filing a number of those slots.

~Dysole, noting it's hard to prove a counterfactual


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Old October 17th, 2018, 02:21 PM
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Re: Hydraphobic

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I mean I've seen a lot more hydras than Kaemons at Gencon. It seems reasonable to assume Kaemon would be filing a number of those slots.

~Dysole, noting it's hard to prove a counterfactual
Really? I mean, sure, Hydras are everywhere in Monster Mash, but since 2012, the number of the two has been pretty equal. Nowadays especially I see more Kaemon (of course, the meta drop in RtW has an impact on that).
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Old October 17th, 2018, 02:49 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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It's also very important to understand that, like the other power rankings list(s), this is assuming to be in a typical competitive environment, and each unit is ranked assuming it is being used in of the best armies possible built around it for said unit to succeed, and in such armies how strong said unit performs. Obviously, if you stick pretty much any unit with Q9+Raelin+Rats you have a decent shot at winning, but that does not say the unit itself is strong.
I struggle with power raking criteria quite a bit, because the criteria all seem fairly ambiguous and each person isn't starting from the same ranking establishment which is 'what is the best performing army for figure X'.

You specifically also mention an army for the unit to succeed. But does that mean success is being measure by more than wins/losses? Personal opinions are going to vary pretty strongly about how the unit is successful.

Isamu is probably the best test case. Clearly Isamu is very good for his points, but also Isamu is rarely going to be a difference maker for his best army over, say, Otonashi. So something else must be going into the rankings besides 'impact to best case army'.

But let's start with a pretty interesting discussion: Knights vs. Heavies.

I think Heavies are the best bonding unit in the game. The short answer would be that I think disengage, 3 def and 5 move > 4 move, 4 defense and is more useful against other top rank armies. (intentionally ignoring bonding targets for quick discussion here)

But we also have to decide what the 'best army' is for each of these units and go from there. I personally think Heavies x3, Grimnak, Nerak, Marcu is one of the best 400 point army you can produce and better than any knight build at that point total. (Knights x3, Gilbert, Finn?) But maybe my opinion changes at different point values. What would you consider the 'best' army for Heavies and Knights?
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Old October 17th, 2018, 03:18 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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Quote:
It's also very important to understand that, like the other power rankings list(s), this is assuming to be in a typical competitive environment, and each unit is ranked assuming it is being used in of the best armies possible built around it for said unit to succeed, and in such armies how strong said unit performs. Obviously, if you stick pretty much any unit with Q9+Raelin+Rats you have a decent shot at winning, but that does not say the unit itself is strong.
I struggle with power raking criteria quite a bit, because the criteria all seem fairly ambiguous and each person isn't starting from the same ranking establishment which is 'what is the best performing army for figure X'.

You specifically also mention an army for the unit to succeed. But does that mean success is being measure by more than wins/losses? Personal opinions are going to vary pretty strongly about how the unit is successful.

Isamu is probably the best test case. Clearly Isamu is very good for his points, but also Isamu is rarely going to be a difference maker for his best army over, say, Otonashi. So something else must be going into the rankings besides 'impact to best case army'.

But let's start with a pretty interesting discussion: Knights vs. Heavies.

I think Heavies are the best bonding unit in the game. The short answer would be that I think disengage, 3 def and 5 move > 4 move, 4 defense and is more useful against other top rank armies. (intentionally ignoring bonding targets for quick discussion here)

But we also have to decide what the 'best army' is for each of these units and go from there. I personally think Heavies x3, Grimnak, Nerak, Marcu is one of the best 400 point army you can produce and better than any knight build at that point total. (Knights x3, Gilbert, Finn?) But maybe my opinion changes at different point values. What would you consider the 'best' army for Heavies and Knights?
I measure my rankings by how efficiently does this unit fulfill its role. Raelin is an S for me because of her sheer efficiency. Rats are right behind but still amazingly efficient. Results of armies matter but a lot of my rankings has been in discussion with the Ashes and my dad. I do think about best armies to see how a unit can shine, assuming the unit is fulfilling a legitimate role in the army.

For example, Hatamato is still bad even though he was in Matthias' army. He wasn't fulfilling a role, so his value doesn't go up. If I brought 3x Heavies, Grimnak, Acolarh and win, Acolarh's value doesn't go up because it isn't a legitimate role that he is fulfilling.

Isamu is over Otonashi in that he is more efficient for his points. For fillers especially, best army doesn't really matter all that much.

It is worth noting that Otonashi is underrated. She's at least a B+ if not an A- alongside Skahen. With Skahen, she essentially becomes a hilariously good 10 point upgrade. I try not to bring Skahen without her.

Last edited by OrcElfArmyOne; October 17th, 2018 at 04:01 PM. Reason: And yes, Heavies are better than Knights
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Old October 17th, 2018, 03:30 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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For example, Hatamato is still bad even though he was in Matthias' army. He wasn't fulfilling a role, so his value doesn't go up. If I brought 3x Heavies, Grimnak, Acolarh and win, Acolarh's value doesn't go up because it isn't a legitimate role that he is fulfilling.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 04:28 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

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For example, Hatamato is still bad even though he was in Matthias' army. He wasn't fulfilling a role, so his value doesn't go up.
Just to be clear, though I thought I was, Hatamoto was the army. The dwarves were filler...

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; October 17th, 2018 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Knights beat heavies every time unless Grimnak eats Gilbert
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  #24  
Old October 17th, 2018, 07:24 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (October 2018)

I feel Heavies vs Knights is an interesting debate that never really was entirely resolved from the army strength minmax days. I feel that Heavies are better at getting wins against the meta; Chomp is ridiculous and 5 move is so important. The Knights are still good obviously but 4 move and 4 defense I think leads to blowout wins or close losses, where Heavies can trade some of that blowout win potential for close wins.

Even head to head I think I take Heavies because you can really abuse Grimnak in melee vs. melee matchups.
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