The C3G Book of Doctor Doom

[Griffin]

OK, 24 hours have passed since the Initial Playtest, and I Propose that we send Doom to the ERB Phase.

[A3n]

Yea - without a doubt.

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Hahma]

yea

[IAmBatman]

heck yea!

[IAmBatman]

This has passed into the ERB Phase!

[Griffin]

I need to go find some ERB peeps yo.

[Griffin]

ERB Weekends!

When I look at this card it isn't so much that it looks broken as that I have this mental image of Robby the Robot flailing his arms yelling "danger, Will Robinson!" Here are the categories:

1) There is an official Doc Doom. C3G has a lot of positive vibe in the community. Retconning an official fig is probably going to make some folks uncomfortable. I get WHY it's being done, but I would note that there were plans for official F4 figs which were fully capable of existing in the universe of the 245 point Doom.

2) Elaborate Death Trap fails to form a mental image for me of what it represents. The power's fine (if somewhat bizarre), but wherever he may be there just happens to be a 20% chance of a roller coaster he can lock you into like in a Scooby Doo chase scene? Something that locked figures in place somehow would be more thematic (if still somewhat difficult to imagine as he moves around the battlefield).

3) Mystic Power Drain just aches of potential disaster. How does he acquire Teleportation or Acid Breath or Chomp or Coil Crush? Playing Brandis or worse, Zetacron, against him could cost you the game. Those aren't the only possible problems here. The potential for abuse is huge and grows every time a new hero is released.

The numbers, the powers, the stats - they can all work with the right figure. Just not sure this is the wisest combination.

~Aldin, treading cautiously

I think this may be the most criticizing ERB response to date. I am not sure what to say/think of it either, because I can't invalidate the man's opinions, though for the record, they are not mine.

Aldin if your out there, feel free to chime in if you would like. Heck I would love it if you did that more often anyways.

[IAmBatman]

1) I'm not concerned by this. I think from the get-go we agreed that official figures were not "off limits" but that this project was going to make its own way. I agree that the official Doom is perfectly fine for what he is, but I also know a number of fans were less than happy with the way many characters were translated into the official game, and Iron Man and Dr. Doom were prominent on that list. So not only do I think it's OK for us to have a C3G version of Dr. Doom, I think it'd be a crime for us not to.

2) I can understand this one. The concept is a bit on the nebulous side, but it makes sense to me. Maybe the original "pit trap" language would work better for him? It's a shame, though, as I really adore the name.

3) This was my largest concern over the card as well, though I do think some wording adjustments made since the initial draft helped somewhat alleviate these concerns for me. Honestly, I think here at C3G we're always trying to push the envelope and innovate and see what we can get away with. When the time comes, I hope we make 5 point figures and 1,500 point figures. It's a great, great gaming system and I for one am in favor of seeing just what we can do with it.
I do think that this particular power and combination calls for a great deal of careful testing. Perhaps we should call for a second Hero test composed only of Army tests as a supplement to test against these concerns? Yes we never know what the future will bring, but we do have control over what C3G's future brings and if, ultimately, we have to publish an advisory that C3G figures may not be fully compatible with Valhalla figures, I'm OK with that. The official designers did it with Marvel themselves. And by the time it got to that point, I think we'd have well more than enough C3G stuff for it to stand on its own.
That said, just so long as we thoroughly, thoroughly test this out, I don't think it should be a problem. Really we're just discussing concerns that certain powers combined with Doom's stats might be broken. This is something that can and should be checked for in playtesting. There is a round restriction and a D20 roll restriction on this power. Also, he can only steal one hero's powers at a time, so power combinations should never come into play with the possibility of brokenness - just Doom's stat and stolen power combos. I think the latter is easier to test for and that it can be done.
And if it turns out to be an issue, I think further measures can be made to further restrict the power and guard against these troubles.

Oh, and you may wish to pm Aldin with that request as he may not see it otherwise. Or maybe he's reading the thread right now ...

[Aldin]

I almost don't know what to say here. I'm one of the folks that I mentioned might feel uncomfortable with the retcon. I almost just wrote back and said you'd probably want someone else to respond to this one because I was immediately biased against it. In the end I decided I'd just give you guys the visceral reaction and let you do what you would with it.

As a set of powers it has the potential to be okay (though as I noted, MPDrain does wonky things when a figure with those stats gets certain powers like Zeta's doubled skulls or Brandis' kill-a-hero-go-again). As a set of powers for Doctor Doom they leave me cold. I can't make a mental picture of Doom Draining or Trapping that would cause them to work the way those powers work on the card.

So the issue isn't so much the stats or powers (previously noted exception notwithstanding), it's those stats and powers belonging to Doom - and a retconned Doom at that.

~Aldin, fleshing out his response

[Griffin]

Thanks, I understand you a bit better I think, that basically this is a two fold issue for you; 1) your not really fond of us "redoing" official figures, which I understand and 2) your not fond of the theme that is being represented here on Doom's card, which I regretfully also understand, but I believe that is due to his theme being all over the place throughout the years.

In response to: 1) C3G was never meant to replace Classic Marvel, just add to it. I think by adding a beefier Doom is very similar to having two Raelin's or two Drakes to choose from, and your choice will likely be based on which unit you like the best and also which one fits into your army. Either way, C3G Doom would not be "replacing" Official Doom any more than Drake II replaced Drake I, or Raelin I replaced Raelin II for that matter.
2) My vision and interpretation of Doom's most classic theme/powers/abilities is his careful preparation of each battle, always leaving several ways for him to escape, trap, or harm his protagonists. The other biggie for me, is his most original power, "stealing other powers" with meta science, mysticism, or technology, either from the Fan 4 or even Silver Surfer. I think this version of Doom hearkens back to a day where there was much more Stan Lee influence and overlording.

[IAmBatman]

I can completely understand that. Not to knock anyone involved with it, since I absolutely treasure the Marvel set and enjoy playing it and credit it with deepening my interest in this game a thousandfold, but when I first say the official Dr. Doom and "Mind Exchange" on his card, I was like "huh, what, huh?"