C3G Requests for Reevaluation

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I'd suggest raising the range of the aura if you go with option A. For a once a round power, that also takes away other optional X reveal powers, I'd want a larger range on that.
And I disagree completely with eliminating the power all together. If anyone should be able shut down the magical abilities of others, it's Dr. Strange.

[Lazy Orang]

I'm just going to nudge this thread - it's been a long time now with no movement on a fix for Strange.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'm just going to nudge this thread - it's been a long time now with no movement on a fix for Strange.

Yeah, we need to get cracking on this again. I was putting Strange off for a little while because I wanted the Spells out before we started talking Strange again, but then I just kept forgetting.

IMO, we should FIFO our Reevaluation talk. I'd like to settle what we're doing for each of the following figures, in the following order:

-Dr Strange
-Cosmic Cube
-Judge Death (and more broadly, the reevaluation of underpowered figures)

So let's get the Strange discussion rolling again, and try to have a direction finalized in the next week (next few days if people weigh in quickly and it doesn't take me long to get the lay of the land).

For a general refresher on the topic, the thing we're trying to fix is that Sorcerer Supreme is a power that tends towards negative experiences, is unthematically strong, creates design space issues, and wasn't ever tested.

LO's proposed version of the power, with the X OM reveal mechanic seemed to be the most popular suggestion when last we spoke but opinions change over time, and so have some of the regulars around here, so I thought I'd double-check where people are at.

Said version of the power looked like this:

Immediately after any numbered Order Marker is revealed, you may reveal an "X" Order Marker on this card. Opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange when you reveal the "X" Order Marker may not use any special power on their Army Cards until another numbered Order Marker is revealed, unless they have this special power.

I'd really strongly prefer something a little less intricate, but none of my previous suggestions exactly caught on. I wanted to make one last pitch for a cleaner, more reusable light-touch power, which I can do a little more easily now that the Spells are a thing:

Opponents' figures within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange cannot cast Spells unless they have this special power.

Lean, clean, and more closely echoes the original power. The "X" version is more dynamic, but the new mechanic constitutes a pretty significant change and upped complexity (which is significant for any future Sorcerer Supreme designs - most notably the Ancient One, but there have been others).

The "X" version is probably closer to Sorcerer Supreme as-written, but the anti-Spell version is closer to Sorcerer Supreme as-tested (which is to say that it's a more minor power and SS wasn't tested at all).

If people are still pro-"X" mechanic, I can stomach that. Like I said, I want the direction sorted out in the next week and if the consensus is against me on exactly what that direction should be, so be it.

Particularly looking for input from Heroes (current and former), Sidekicks and CRB, but anyone can weigh in.

[Yodaking]

I could actually get behind either one of those directions. I like the strategic aspect of requiring the X reveal, as well as the larger impact of countering all the powers on a card (some of which are just iconic spells for that figure). The simplicity of saying you can't cast any spells is nice though too in that it covers figures that might be able to cast a spell but not have the MD power.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Yeah, we need to get cracking on this again. I was putting Strange off for a little while because I wanted the Spells out before we started talking Strange again, but then I just kept forgetting.

IMO, we should FIFO our Reevaluation talk. I'd like to settle what we're doing for each of the following figures, in the following order:

-Dr Strange
-Cosmic Cube
-Judge Death (and more broadly, the reevaluation of underpowered figures)

So let's get the Strange discussion rolling again, and try to have a direction finalized in the next week (next few days if people weigh in quickly and it doesn't take me long to get the lay of the land).

For a general refresher on the topic, the thing we're trying to fix is that Sorcerer Supreme is a power that tends towards negative experiences, is unthematically strong, creates design space issues, and wasn't ever tested.

LO's proposed version of the power, with the X OM reveal mechanic seemed to be the most popular suggestion when last we spoke but opinions change over time, and so have some of the regulars around here, so I thought I'd double-check where people are at.

Said version of the power looked like this:

I'd really strongly prefer something a little less intricate, but none of my previous suggestions exactly caught on. I wanted to make one last pitch for a cleaner, more reusable light-touch power, which I can do a little more easily now that the Spells are a thing:

Lean, clean, and more closely echoes the original power. The "X" version is more dynamic, but the new mechanic constitutes a pretty significant change and upped complexity (which is significant for any future Sorcerer Supreme designs - most notably the Ancient One, but there have been others).

The "X" version is probably closer to Sorcerer Supreme as-written, but the anti-Spell version is closer to Sorcerer Supreme as-tested (which is to say that it's a more minor power and SS wasn't tested at all).

If people are still pro-"X" mechanic, I can stomach that. Like I said, I want the direction sorted out in the next week and if the consensus is against me on exactly what that direction should be, so be it.

Particularly looking for input from Heroes (current and former), Sidekicks and CRB, but anyone can weigh in.

Well that worked if the other Magical Defense figures didn't how spells already included in their cards. Ranged attacks and special powers/attacks on their cards are the original version of Spells...

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I could actually get behind either one of those directions. I like the strategic aspect of requiring the X reveal, as well as the larger impact of countering all the powers on a card (some of which are just iconic spells for that figure). The simplicity of saying you can't cast any spells is nice though too in that it covers figures that might be able to cast a spell but not have the MD power.

Yeah, really cleanly handling non-MD spell-casters is a definite upside of the simpler direction.

Originally Posted by japes

Well that worked if the other Magical Defense figures didn't how spells already included in their cards. Ranged attacks and special powers/attacks on their cards are the original version of Spells...

Current Strange and the X OM version don't nerf anyone's range, but they do turn off built-in biological stuff like Amora's Super Strength and Wanda's mutant powers. There isn't really a version that's thematically perfect or completely internally consistent.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

I like the 'no-spell' version, it makes a fair bit of sense even for figures with 'innate spells' I'd think. Like you can sell it as he's able to cut off people's access to outside sources of magic and what not but the 'signature spells' are so ingrained into their user that there's no 'weak link' in the connection for Strange to sever.

[Lazy Orang]

I'm strongly in favour of the X-Marker version, just because it seems more strategic and fun. The no-spell thing does nothing for me - all it feels like it's managing to do is negate a fun new part of the game - whereas the X-Marker version is something you have to think around and hit at the right time.

That being said, either's tonnes better than the present version.

[quozl]

You could just drop the power entirely. It was never tested so has no bearing on his point value.

[Arkham]

IMO, some changes could be made to things without going through the time consuming task of retesting things a bunch of times. This goes for both over-performing and under-performing units alike. Of course, if we're reworking powers entirely, that calls for more rigorous testing, but if we're merely touching up something that can make something more viable or slightly less viable, I think it'd be in our best interest to not have it requiring so much retesting that it never gets done.

I know it's sidetracking a tad, but Nightcrawler I for example has been tossed around quite a bit in the past. We know what could turn Nightcrawler I around enough to at least be a bit more viable without needing to test it thoroughly, such as:

TELEPORT EVADE
If Nightcrawler is attacked by a normal attack from an opponent's figure, and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-12 1-10, roll defense dice normally. If you roll 13 11 or higher, Nightcrawler takes no damage and may immediately move using his Bamf! special power. Nightcrawler can Teleport Evade only if he uses his Bamf! special power to move at least one space.

Giving him a 10% higher chance to avoid the attack, as well as opening it up to all attacks rather than just limited to normal, should be a simple enough change to solve his biggest problem.

Not trying to change the focus to Nightcrawler, that was merely an example of a simple enough change that it shouldn't require a bunch of retesting. I feel in a large number of cases, between the CRB and those of us who have been using these figures for years, we should be able to make these light changes without needing to rely on retests(the major bottleneck in the process). Perhaps we just put some of these simpler fixes up to a vote and of course get heavy CRB approval.

[johnny139]

Not to throw a wrench in, but the poll we had last time was fairly close, and I still have a pretty strong preference for the other alternative:

Opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange may not use any special power on their Army Cards unless they have this special power.

It's a smaller change, preserves the original intent as best we can, and allows for strategic depth via figure placement and positioning both for Strange and his opponents.

[japes]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Not to throw a wrench in, but the poll we had last time was fairly close, and I still have a pretty strong preference for the other alternative:

It's a smaller change, preserves the original intent as best we can, and allows for strategic depth via figure placement and positioning both for Strange and his opponents.

Not sure how I voted before but I think I liked that version and if I didn't I do now. Considering innately use spells the gospels version has no bearing on means therefore seems not worth the effort.