C3G Requests for Reevaluation

[TrollBrute]

So we do not clutter up any other threads, we've decided to start this thread. What we want to see here:

If there is a general consensus that a C3G design needs a tweak for competitive play, please post it in this thread.

If you come to a consensus and post at least 6 different army tests by 3 different people, we will take that data and evaluate it in the sanctum. Then we'll get back to you with how we want to go from there. Please post the standard playtest reports in this thread.

When the design is finalized, the card will be updated and a post in that design thread will be made noting the update.

[TrollBrute]

PLAYTESTS:

Designs currently in the Reevaluation process:

none

Designs in initial reevaluation testing:

none

Designs that have completed the process:

Spoiler Alert!

- Puppet Master (String Pull overpowered)
weebaer: army test 1 army test 2
dok's army tests 1 & 2
DocGlock's army tests 1 and 2

- Surtur
tournament tests 1, 2, 3, 4
Soundwarp SG-1 test 5
Hellfire test 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

- Mastermind (Reason: potentially overly beneficial to pods / potentially overshadows other units)
*CRB Endorsement
dok's tests
TB's tests

- Commander Rogers (Reason: potentially overpowered with Brainiac 5, Mad Thinker, Ozymandias and others / potentially makes other Order Marker management units obsolete / potentially too strong offensively)
*CRB Endorsement
dok's tests
TrollBrute's tests
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Aggressive Sock's tests
Viegon's tests
Midgieboy3's tests

- Sage (Reason: potentially overpowered with Brainiac 5, Mad Thinker, Ozymandias and others / potentially makes other Order Marker management units obsolete)
*CRB Endorsement
Trollbrute's tests
Viegon's tests
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Aggressive Sock's tests

- Bizarro (Reason: potentially too strong as a protector / stacks with other defensive powers)
*CRB Endorsement
TrollBrute's tests
Viegon's tests
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Viegon's tests
ZJ's tests

- Jocasta (Reason: potentially too strong as a protector / stacks with other defensive powers)
*CRB Endorsement
TrollBrute's tests
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Aggressive Sock's tests
Zettian Juggernaut's tests


- Aaron Cash (Reason: potentially too strong as a protector / stacks with other defensive powers)
*CRB Endorsement
dok's tests
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
After further changes:
TrollBrute's tests
dok's test
Viegon's tests

Enchantress (Reason: Enchantment boost too strong / Soul Swap easily abusable)
Tests:
First Reevaluation Version Playtests:
Arkham's tests
TrollBrute's tests
Ronin's tests
Second Reevaluation Version Playtests:
Viegon's tests
Midgieboy3's tests
Ronin's tests

- Indigo-1 (Reason: potentially overly beneficial to pods / potentially overshadows other units)
*CRB Endorsement
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Viegon's tests
Ronin's tests

- Psycho-Man (Reason: Control Box/Hate too powerful / negative play experience)
*CRB Endorsement
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Ronin's tests
quozl's tests

- Crow (Reason: potentially too strong / negative play experience)
*CRB Endorsement
dok's test
Tests with changes:
TrollBrute's tests
Ronin's tests
Arkham's tests

Playtests for underpowered/overcosted designs:

Spoiler Alert!

- Updated Nightcrawler
Yodaking's tests

Note on CRB Endorsements:

Spoiler Alert!

If the Competitive Review Board (CRB) votes to endorse a unit for reevaluation, that counts as one of the three playtests required to get a unit into reevaluation.

[quozl]

Currently accepting playtest reports!

[Porkins]

Nightcrawler needs to have the d20 roll reduced for Teleport Evade, even if it means raising his cost. It's just part of his character, and the current roll means that it doesn't trigger often enough for it to "feel" right.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Porkins

Nightcrawler needs to have the d20 roll reduced for Teleport Evade, even if it means raising his cost. It's just part of his character, and the current roll means that it doesn't trigger often enough for it to "feel" right.

I love the design, but he just doesn't last long enough to see enough play IMO.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Karat

I love the design, but he just doesn't last long enough to see enough play IMO.

3rd this nomination. No need to change anything else about the design, just lower that D20 number down a lot so that he is teleporting around much more frequently and not getting killed off so easily. Then raise his points accordingly.

[dok]

Good idea to break this off from the strategy thread.

The other ones I would consider revisiting, aside from Puppet Master:

• Joker I - the OM rearrangement is just too nasty and frustrating. If it were just one OM it would still be pretty potent.
  
• Mastermind - very underpriced for the ability to turn 6 heroes invisible. Should cost at least twice as much.
  
• Sage - Basically eliminates all past concepts of OM management. If you limit it to once per round then it's still very powerful, but this breaks up the Sage/Braniac5 combo and makes it less dominant in general.
  
• Angel, 5th Prescinct Beat Cops, Alfred Pennyworth - nothing wrong with these guys except that they are underpriced.
  
• Magma - reasonably priced in isolation, but her combos with Magneto, et al, are so nasty that I think she needs a price boost of at least 50 points.
  
• Bizarro - reasonably priced for his stats, but Villainous Defense seems stronger than Superman's version and that just doesn't jive for me.

After that it starts to drop off a bit. I'd argue for Martian Manhunter, Doctor Light/Metiorite, and Shadowcat next, but none of these are as pressing as the ones I list above. Enchantress might belong here, too, but I need more time to consider her. I've only watched her shred a ridiculous army once, personally.

I have less experience on the flip side. The only figure that I look at and say "I'd never draft that guy" is Penguin, although Ventriloquist, Doomsday, and Impossible Man all seem underpowered to me. I'll probably get an argument on Doomsday.

[fret_gurglo]

Originally Posted by dok

Good idea to break this off from the strategy thread.

The other ones I would consider revisiting, aside from Puppet Master:

• Joker I - the OM rearrangement is just too nasty and frustrating. If it were just one OM it would still be pretty potent.
• Mastermind - very underpriced for the ability to turn 6 heroes invisible. Should cost at least twice as much.
• Sage - Basically eliminates all past concepts of OM management. If you limit it to once per round then it's still very powerful, but this breaks up the Sage/Braniac combo and makes it less dominant in general.
• Angel, 5th Prescinct Beat Cops, Alfred Pennyworth - nothing wrong with these guys except that they are underpriced.
• Magma - reasonably priced in isolation, but her combos with Magneto, et al, are so nasty that I think she needs a price boost of at least 50 points.

After that it starts to drop off a bit. I'd argue for Martian Manhunter, Doctor Light/Metiorite, and Shadowcat next, but none of these are as pressing as the ones I list above. Enchantress might belong here, too, but I need more time to consider her. I've only watched her shred a ridiculous army once, personally.

I have less experience on the flip side. The only figure that I look at and say "I'd never draft that guy" is Penguin, although Ventriloquist, Doomsday, and Impossible Man all seem underpowered to me. I'll probably get an argument on Doomsday.

I would add Two-Face to the underpower/overpriced list. I have never had a successful experience with him.

I would add Poison Ivy to the overpowered/underpriced list.

[Yodaking]

I think you need to be careful trying to price every unit based on the effectiveness of their best possible combination of units and powers. To do so would make them unusable in any army outside of that narrow window.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I think you need to be careful trying to price every unit based on the effectiveness of their best possible combination of units and powers. To do so would make them unusable in any army outside of that narrow window.

This may just be a distinction in philosophy, but "price based on best combinations" is pretty much a guiding principle in C3V.

It gets fuzzier when the thing that makes a figure perform at its best isn't a combo of figures, but rather a scenario or map. We are generally OK with a figure being really good in its ideal environment as long as it's not out-and-out broken in that environment. The Eilan Sidhe are a good example - they are a very solid "A", maybe even an A+, on a very tree-heavy map, but pretty mediocre outside that.

[Smithy Winfred]

Originally Posted by dok

Good idea to break this off from the strategy thread.

The other ones I would consider revisiting, aside from Puppet Master:

• Joker I - the OM rearrangement is just too nasty and frustrating. If it were just one OM it would still be pretty potent.
  
• Mastermind - very underpriced for the ability to turn 6 heroes invisible. Should cost at least twice as much.
  
• Sage - Basically eliminates all past concepts of OM management. If you limit it to once per round then it's still very powerful, but this breaks up the Sage/Braniac5 combo and makes it less dominant in general.
  
• Angel, 5th Prescinct Beat Cops, Alfred Pennyworth - nothing wrong with these guys except that they are underpriced.
  
• Magma - reasonably priced in isolation, but her combos with Magneto, et al, are so nasty that I think she needs a price boost of at least 50 points.
  
• Bizarro - reasonably priced for his stats, but Villainous Defense seems stronger than Superman's version and that just doesn't jive for me.

After that it starts to drop off a bit. I'd argue for Martian Manhunter, Doctor Light/Metiorite, and Shadowcat next, but none of these are as pressing as the ones I list above. Enchantress might belong here, too, but I need more time to consider her. I've only watched her shred a ridiculous army once, personally.

I have less experience on the flip side. The only figure that I look at and say "I'd never draft that guy" is Penguin, although Ventriloquist, Doomsday, and Impossible Man all seem underpowered to me. I'll probably get an argument on Doomsday.

I disagree about doomsday, his increasing defense, combined with a powerful attack, and an ability to re-spawn makes him very effective in longer battles (1500+). he can also bypass Kryptonian defense, which is another added plus.

I TOTALLY agree with you on the Blinding Light figures (namely Meteorite). She can totally wreck an entire team by herself if that team relys on clear sight (I lost a huge advantage that I had with Purple Man because of her). At least Dr Light can be picked off by snipers, but Meteorite you have to be right next to her, at which point she can use her manipulation power on you and stop you from attacking, it just isn't fair. I don't think she needs a point increase, I think her powers need to be re-evaluated entirely. (I hope I didn't come off to critical)

My second, is Batroc the Leaper, even though he is my favorite figure. His chance for a auto skull (a huge advantage) and a base 5/5 stats, make him a formidible opponent for anyone who doesn't have range. His dodge might have a lot of loopholes, but if he goes against Batman, Bats will lose 4 out of 5 times. I don't think he should be redesigned at all, I love the design, but I think a 20 point increase would be perfect.

Some others, very quickly:

- Wendigo could use a point drop
- Loki could be reduced a tad
- Penguin needs a increase for self importance
- Ventriloquist needs more potent powers
- Iron Man MK3 is too weak compared to the others
- Hawkeye either needs a point drop, or a increase to his powers, he just isnt on the same level as Green Arrow

[dok]

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

I disagree about doomsday, his increasing defense, combined with a powerful attack, and an ability to re-spawn makes him very effective in longer battles (1500+). he can also bypass Kryptonian defense, which is another added plus.

I said I would get an argument.

While Adaptive Resistance is a great power, Evolutionary Regeneration is basically only useful in a stalling game. Any decent team at that point level can do better things with an order marker than knock a wound marker off Doomsday.

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

I TOTALLY agree with you on the Blinding Light figures (namely Meteorite). She can totally wreck an entire team by herself if that team relys on clear sight (I lost a huge advantage that I had with Purple Man because of her). At least Dr Light can be picked off by snipers, but Meteorite you have to be right next to her, at which point she can use her manipulation power on you and stop you from attacking, it just isn't fair. I don't think she needs a point increase, I think her powers need to be re-evaluated entirely. (I hope I didn't come off to critical)

I haven't plated Metiorite, but I've played Doctor Light quite a bit, and I agree that it seems like adding intangibility to the mix with him could be ridiculous. Then she has that OM removal power after you engage her!

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

My second, is Batroc the Leaper, even though he is my favorite figure. His chance for a auto skull (a huge advantage) and a base 5/5 stats, make him a formidible opponent for anyone who doesn't have range. His dodge might have a lot of loopholes, but if he goes against Batman, Bats will lose 4 out of 5 times. I don't think he should be redesigned at all, I love the design, but I think a 20 point increase would be perfect.

You may be right; I'm not sure. He could be underpriced but at the end of the day he's a melee normal attacker who can't be multiple-activated.

The recent standalone figures that strike me as possibly underpriced for their attacking output are Radioactive Man and Crimson Dynamo, but these are also solely pricing issues and I am not confident that I'm right about either of them.

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

Some others, very quickly:

- Wendigo could use a point drop
- Loki could be reduced a tad
- Penguin needs a increase for self importance
- Ventriloquist needs more potent powers
- Iron Man MK3 is too weak compared to the others
- Hawkeye either needs a point drop, or a increase to his powers, he just isnt on the same level as Green Arrow

Wendigo is pretty decent in a Frankenstein build, and Hawkeye can bond with SHIELD agents with Nick Fury's help. So I'm not sure I'd drop them. Agreed on Penguin and Ventriloquist. No real opinion on MK3 but you may be right.

I have a soft spot for Loki and keep trying to use him, but I always come away thinking I could have done better with the points.