The Book of Nemesis (Tom Tresser)

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Ok, since there haven't been any early pushes for major changes yet, I'm going to go ahead and tag the rest of the CRB.
@dok @Dysole @weebaer

Y'all see anything worrisome?

[Yodaking]

I feel the scale markers should only be added when an opponent destroys one of your figures. Otherwise you'll end up with someone wiping out a bunch of their own fire ants at the start of the game. Then if you are not getting a scale marker for destroying your own figure as he comes onto the board, maybe have him chill in the start zone and just swap places without destroying the common figure.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I feel the scale markers should only be added when an opponent destroys one of your figures. Otherwise you'll end up with someone wiping out a bunch of their own fire ants at the start of the game.

Eh, personally I'd like to at least get some tests in before limiting him like that. Getting Scale markers from his teammates' friendly fire is an intentional part of the design right now, as it felt pretty Suicide Squady (doesn't work with Waller due to the ruling that the control switch happens before she blows people up though unfortunately). If testing proves that the best play is always to burn Fire Ants to fuel him, I'd change it. I'm not one hundred percent sure it is though, that's giving up 30-40 points of figures (and whatever number of turns it took to kill them) to boost a 140ish points guy. Seems at that point you could have just gone with Blue Beetle, who does pretty similar stuff to what you'd be trying to do with that strategy.

Like in a setup where you have Tom, and Ants, and like Hired Guns or something, and the other guy has squad figures of his own, you could get a turn one Alpha Strike in the other teams base. Tom's almost guaranteed to get plastered right after that though, so it's kind of a gamble if he is going to earn back his points and the ants' points in that one turn of living.

I'd be more concerned if you could also use Ants as disguise fodder, but you can't. Doesn't really feel that crazy when Tom basically already has a 'cost' of you probably needing to draft a common squad of your own (unless you feel like gambling or know you're going to be playing against armies that have common squads in them) to make sure he can hit the field.

Ultimately, I'm hoping using him to mess with your opponent's actions over the course of the game will be a more appealing option than the suicide strike option. Killing your own ants is really only useful for the latter.

Then if you are not getting a scale marker for destroying your own figure as he comes onto the board, maybe have him chill in the start zone and just swap places without destroying the common figure.

I'm not sure I follow here. I really don't want him to be hanging out in the start zone (that's not very stealthy), or switching out with other people from the start zone onto the field. That feels a little too teleporty. I also very much want him to destroy enemy figures when he switches with them, I don't really want to have to add some branching language for if he's switching with an enemy or a friendly.

The 'destroy a friendly' option is supposed to be the classic 'knock you out for your own good' type of deal that happens all the time in action movies and such (which he has done to various degrees in the comics before). He's not actually killing them, but the game doesn't distinguish between knocking out and killing. It just has 'destroy', so he 'destroys' people just like Batman and Spider-Man do. In their case I imagine it is more like 'destroy this guy's ability to impact the game by making him go sleepy-bye'.

[Yodaking]

I missed that you could pick your opponents common figure to replace with him, I was thinking you had to destroy one of your own figures to bring him into play. The theme I was going with was that he was just disguised as one of your other units, but now I see that is not what you were thinking.

His cost might end up being a bit higher if he can auto-destroy a Lex Corp Security figure from anywhere on the board. That is 65 points destroyed right when he arrives and he will also likely start the game on high ground since the LCS fly. Thunders of Qward is another 65 point score. Skrull Warriors are 55 points. Hawkmen are 50 and also have flying. Hulkbuster Soldiers and Gorilla City Warriors are 42 point scores. Intergang Agents is 40 as are a SHIELD Sniper and Kree Scout. Those are some pretty decent auto kill options. I realize those 'wins' will be balanced by the times where he is facing an army with no medium common figures and you will have to 'pay' to bring him in by sacrificing your own figures. If you are willing to wait the best option there would be a Skull Infiltrator at 10 points. A more aggressive option would be the SHIELD Spotter or SWAT Assaulter at 25 points. An interesting design idea.

As for my thought process on the Fire Ants, I wasn't saying you would be willing to destroy 40+ points at the start of the game just to get 4 Silver Markers but rather at some point mid-game once you already have 2-3 Silver Markers, and your Ant Man (Agent) is already dead, you could just chose to wipe out the last Fire Ant Swarm or two you have for the Silver. A guy like CA often only has 2 opponents in range but 3 attacks with his shield throw so sending the extra attack at a lone fire ant swarm isn't costing you anything. I just find it a little off when your 'hero' can benefit from killing his own allies, even if they are just ants.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I just find it a little off when your 'hero' can benefit from killing his own allies, even if they are just ants.

See, the way I look at it is Nemesis might be a good guy, but there is nothing saying that his general (player) has to be or that Nemesis is working for you by choice. I think it's fine thematically for Red Skull or whoever to kill an ally to 'encourage' Nemesis to pop up sooner. Sort of like how you can attack your own figure to make Superman I move up a bit if you wanted, totally a thing I could see Lex doing/ordering in some weird enemy mine situation.

Tom's whole deal is trying to 'balance the scales' and 'pay back his debts' (he is only on the Suicide Squad because they paid his medical bills once basically) and such, I like the idea of him getting riled up by friendly fire as long as he isn't the one doing the firing. Something sort of similar actually did happen in the comics with Deadshot once.

IDK, personally I like leaving the option to do a little bad guy roleplay as long as it doesn't break anything.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Alrighty, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of debate going on for old Tom, I'm going to try and go ahead with this version:

--

NAME = NEMESIS
SECRET IDENTITY = TOM TRESSER

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = AGENT
PERSONALITY = DRIVEN

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = ~140

DEEP COVER INFILTRATION
Nemesis does not start the game on the battlefield. After taking a turn with a figure you control, if Nemesis has not been placed on the battlefield, you may choose 1 Medium Common figure that has not moved or attacked this player turn and destroy that figure. If you do, place Nemesis on the space previously occupied by that destroyed figure and, if there are two or more Scale Markers on this card, you may take an immediate turn with Nemesis.

I added the bit in red so you can't slingshot him forward on your turn by moving up a squad figure and then Nemesising them. Or added it back in anyway,
I wasn't sure how I wanted to word that for C3G and I guess I just forgot to put it in after looking it up.

SCALES OF JUSTICE
When a friendly figure is destroyed *by a figure other than Nemesis*, even if Nemesis is not on the battlefield, place 1 silver Scale Marker on this card. When an enemy figure is destroyed, even if Nemesis is not on the battlefield, remove 1 silver Scale Marker from this card. A maximum of 6 Scale markers may be placed on this card.

* or 'by an enemy figure' if testing proves killing your own dudes proves to be too much of a no-brainer

BALANCE THE SCALES
If there is at least:
* One Scale Marker on this card, add 1 to Nemesis's attack value; and
* Three Scale Markers on this card, when Nemesis attacks, he may attack one additional time.


--

So I propose Tom moves along to initial playtesting:

@japes -
@Ronin -
@Arkham -
@Yodaking -
@johnny139 -

[Arkham]

Yea

[Ronin]

yea

[japes]

yea

[Yodaking]

yea

[johnny139]

Yea

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Alrighty, this passes

I'll have the tests up by the Monday or so.