Dayton, Ohio Melee Massacre Jan 6th 2023!!

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

I guess I did too good with my Varkaanan Wolf Pack (all melee squads and Heroes) and most people though they were overpowered due to low cost for stats and avoiding a lot of other powers due to the army being all Unique and Large figures, whcih probably caused some people to loose respect for C3V.

I had no respect for the customs anyway, I've had too much experience with player-designed units being unbalanced in other games. I haven't bothered looking at any of the customs here and in the unlikely event I ever run a tournament again no customs would be allowed.

I don't consider them overpowered due the cost for stats, they're not that great compared to a lot of vanilla units - except for the large size, that might nudge them into the upper tier I suppose.

What makes them unbalanced is that their bonding ability is nothing like the already powerful bonding that can be found in the vanilla game. It's way too flexible compared to normal bonding.

[outforblood]

Originally Posted by Marduk

I had no respect for the customs anyway, I've had too much experience with player-designed units being unbalanced in other games. I haven't bothered looking at any of the customs here and in the unlikely event I ever run a tournament again no customs would be allowed.

I don't consider them overpowered due the cost for stats, they're not that great compared to a lot of vanilla units - except for the large size, that might nudge them into the upper tier I suppose.

What makes them unbalanced is that their bonding ability is nothing like the already powerful bonding that can be found in the vanilla game. It's way too flexible compared to normal bonding.

It makes me wonder just how much playtesting is really involved? I think it's great that the c3v is helping to keep the game alive and all but I as well prefer not having customs in tournaments.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by outforblood

It makes me wonder just how much playtesting is really involved? I think it's great that the c3v is helping to keep the game alive and all but I as well prefer not having customs in tournaments.

There's plenty of valid reasons to not use C3V in tournaments.

Maybe only a few of your attendees have any. Maybe none of your regulars are familiar with the cards, and don't want to have to do a bunch of research before showing up at a tournament. Maybe you just prefer to stick with what the official designers officially released.

I don't think you'd find many people (even C3V people) trying to disagree with that decision. You're the tournament director, and you get to choose what's best for your tournament scene.

But the claims that Varkaanans are overpowered or that the C3V doesn't do enough playtesting are simply unfounded. In rankings that consider C3V customs, the Varkaanans are mostly tier 7 (the 4th best tier), or B+.

There are many melee armies that are better: Knights+Sir Gilbert, Greenscales+Braxas, Heavy Gruts+Grimnak, Axegrinders+Darrak+Mogrimm, Romans+MDG+NGS.

There's many more that are at the same level: Nagrubs+TKN, Dividers, Blade Gruts+Grimnak, Minions, Sentinels, Greenscales+Charos.

Don't read this as a "you have to play C3V" post. I'd never try to force that on a tournament scene that wasn't my own. But I'd encourage you that we in the C3V are very very careful about releasing balanced and extensively playtested units, and the Varkaanans are no exception.

[outforblood]

Thanks for chiming in @superfrog . From the 2 tournaments that we ran we only had 2 players using c3v units. It was interesting to see how they went up against the official ones. The scene here in Dayton seems to be picking back up again which is great. We even had a couple new Scapers show up. I myself prefer classic HS but maybe one day I'll work my way up to c3v.

Scape on.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by outforblood

Thanks for chiming in @superfrog . From the 2 tournaments that we ran we only had 2 players using c3v units. It was interesting to see how they went up against the official ones. The scene here in Dayton seems to be picking back up again which is great. We even had a couple new Scapers show up. I myself prefer classic HS but maybe one day I'll work my way up to c3v.

Scape on.

That's quite a reasonable approach.

'Scape on indeed.

[TradeMark]

Originally Posted by Marduk

I had no respect for the customs anyway, I've had too much experience with player-designed units being unbalanced in other games. I haven't bothered looking at any of the customs here and in the unlikely event I ever run a tournament again no customs would be allowed.

I don't consider them overpowered due the cost for stats, they're not that great compared to a lot of vanilla units - except for the large size, that might nudge them into the upper tier I suppose.

What makes them unbalanced is that their bonding ability is nothing like the already powerful bonding that can be found in the vanilla game. It's way too flexible compared to normal bonding.

Having been one of the other vocal oppositions to the models, I want to note that they were, in addition to having crazy flexible bonding
A) Immune to a large number of special rules due to size
B) Were still single hex, so avoided the disadvantages with movement inherent there
C) Did have strong stats per model compared to classic choices at similar costs
D) Had a special rule complexity per model that exceeds the majority of classic minis


To put it in perspective, here is my list, which paid out the nose for complex bonding versatility.


2x Blade Gruts
Grimnak
Ornak
Marcu
Krug
Brunak


The large size and high speed (they actually outspeed Blade Gruts substantially due to more models per activiation + bonus move rates/abilities) meant that Grimnak & the Gruts were just about useless vs them. Krug was the primary threat, and he did well, though I think it was more due to some questionable engagements rather than his inherent strength.


As a whole, the units did not seem balanced for the cost, nor did they seem to fit with the basic design principles of classic scape. Getting back into the scene after a while off, I'll probably avoid events with customs allowed from here on out.


I get the appeal of trying to spice up a game, but it really was like playing 2 different game systems.