The Book of Daredevil

[A3n]

I'd say for sure Spidey has better reflexes to avoid an attack, but Daredevil knows what the attack is and where it's coming from before Spidey does, so he should be able to get a slight head start in reacting.

I would slightly disagree about this as Daredevil wouldn't know where it's coming from before Spidey does. Spidey has precognition where as Daredevil's senses are like a radar so there has to be movement before he can detect the attack. Having said that my feeling is that their reactions would be similar so having them work similarly isn't an issue for me. The billie club going as high as the spidey line or the Sgt Drakes grapple is a little more of an issue to me. Sgt Drakes is a gas propelled line shot from a rifle & I don't believe the spring that would be contained in the billie club would be near as effective, may 1/2 to 3/4 as effective. But having said that going down he does use it to scale he dives off heights & uses the club to change direction or to swing at last minute so the arc of the swing would leave him running on the ground so no limit going down would not be an issue either.

Cheers

[whitestuff]

I'm with GO. I think that the 3 movement, 20 levels is ok.

The problem I'm having is about the no falling damage. Why would DD have no falling damage when Batman does? Batman rarely falls, he glides but that's not on the card for his normal movement. I don't think DD needs it.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by A3n

I would slightly disagree about this as Daredevil wouldn't know where it's coming from before Spidey does. Spidey has precognition where as Daredevil's senses are like a radar so there has to be movement before he can detect the attack. Having said that my feeling is that their reactions would be similar so having them work similarly isn't an issue for me. The billie club going as high as the spidey line or the Sgt Drakes grapple is a little more of an issue to me. Sgt Drakes is a gas propelled line shot from a rifle & I don't believe the spring that would be contained in the billie club would be near as effective, may 1/2 to 3/4 as effective. But having said that going down he does use it to scale he dives off heights & uses the club to change direction or to swing at last minute so the arc of the swing would leave him running on the ground so no limit going down would not be an issue either.

Cheers

I agree that Spidey Sense is kind of like precognition and he'd sense something wrong first, but he doesn't know "what" it is and his reflexes are so good that he can get out of the way at the last second. But Daredevil can smell something like gunpowder, hear a heartbeat speeding up in anticipation etc. and can tell where it's coming from. That's all I was kind of trying to say, he uses all his superhuman senses to help avoid trouble.

I agree that I can live with the grapple being less than Drake's and Batman's. If it's only going to be part of his Radar Sense defense and not something he would use normally like Swing Line or Grapple in order to get to places whenever he chooses, I would think that 15-20 could be attainable with the combination of his acrobatic ability and cane grapple. It would let him get over a battlement on a castle wall and then some or across a 2 space chasm. I don't need it to be equal to Batman, Spidey or Drake, but something reasonable that allow for the way he uses the cane grapple in conjunction with his great acrobatic ability. I mean he's not normally climbing up skyscrapers with the grapple, but he uses it to get him from ground to fire escape and then he swings himself up and then so on.

Originally Posted by whitestuff

I'm with GO. I think that the 3 movement, 20 levels is ok.

The problem I'm having is about the no falling damage. Why would DD have no falling damage when Batman does? Batman rarely falls, he glides but that's not on the card for his normal movement. I don't think DD needs it.

I agree with the 3 space 20 levels as well.

Batman doesn't have no falling damage because he has the Bat-Grapple, so unless he's had his special powers nullified or falls from greater than 34 levels, he essentially takes no falling damage up to 34 levels high.

The other thing for me is that Catwoman can climb up a castle wall and onto a wall walk with her normal move if she starts out adjacent to it and she has a line where she takes no normal or major falling damage. Cats may land on their feet, but she's already got the 9 lives thematic treatment Daredevil routinely jumps off of high places and works his way down to the ground by way of different parts of the building, fire escapes, flagpoles, his cane grapple etc. And while I know those things aren't out in the middle of an open map, but that doesn't stop any other Swing Line, Grapple figure from doing it even though there isn't anything on the map to grapple onto.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Yes, his Radar Sense does warn him of things better because he can "see" them, while Spidey only gets a buzz. But Spidey also gets a buzz if he moves thr wrong way, so he can correct because he does have superhuman reflexes which Daredevil does not.

While he is Peak Human like Batman, he is not as fast or agile as Spider-Man. That is why Spidey should be able to dodge better.
I may know I am about to get shot, but I can't dodge it necessarily, with or without Olympic level reaction speed.

All I can say is that official Marvel sources say Radar Sense is superior to Spider-Sense. Regardless of Spider-Man's faster reflexes, Daredevil overall is better at avoiding things he wants to avoid. Mainly because he has more warning than Spider-Man does (more than enough to make up for the reflexes) and he also because he knows what's happening, whereas Spider-Man only knows that there is danger but not what it is. And there's a quote somewhere by Stan Lee that says the accident that heightened Daredevil's senses also changed his inner ear, thus giving him faster reflexes and better balance/agility than a normal human. So his reflexes are superhuman (though just slightly). I would place him above Batman but below Spider-Man in that regard.

But regardless, I'm not sure why we're arguing over whether Daredevil is better, because Spidey-Sense works on a 11 or higher, can move 4 spaces, and up to 40 levels up or down, while Daredevil's Radar Sense works at 12 or higher, for 3 spaces, and I'm suggesting 20 levels up or down. Spidey-Sense is already better in every way.

In fact, I'd argue that this doesn't accurately represent Radar Sense being superior to Spidey-Sense. Perhaps one of these 3 variables should be superior to what Spidey-Sense can do, and not taking falling damage might be that thing?

So my vote is for Radar Sense to work up to 20 levels higher, and no falling damage downward OR it works 20 levels higher/lower and we add a 4th power for not taking falling damage ever, for consistency with his normal move.

[A3n]

I can go with the 20 levels higher & no lower limit & leave off the no falling damage as a separate power.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

I'm on board with Radar Sense on 12+ for a move of 3 with 20 levels up or down. I think 20 levels down is plenty and would prefer not to worry about falling damage. Actually, past 20 levels, isn't it close to extreme falling damage anyway? Are we wanting him to avoid extreme falling damage?
If there's going to be anything about falling damage on the card, it needs to be part of the Radar Sense move, IMO. I don't want to see a 4th power just for that.

[Griffin]

I love what you are doing here GO! Man without Fear is great IMO. I think you nailed the theme and introduced a subtle new mechanic.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm on board with Radar Sense on 12+ for a move of 3 with 20 levels up or down. I think 20 levels down is plenty and would prefer not to worry about falling damage. Actually, past 20 levels, isn't it close to extreme falling damage anyway? Are we wanting him to avoid extreme falling damage?
If there's going to be anything about falling damage on the card, it needs to be part of the Radar Sense move, IMO. I don't want to see a 4th power just for that.

I'm good with this approach.

[IAmBatman]

Awesome. An update and I think we're all relatively happy with him, then, unless anyone wanted to keep talking about the Blindness thing ...

[GreyOwl]

Updated.

[IAmBatman]

Cool. If I had any time at all right now or in the foreseeable future until July ... (it starts getting very busy with wedding stuff here very fast) I'd be jumping at the chance to do an initial playtest on this guy! I think he's pretty much ready.

[Hahma]

I think he looks great GO. I can do an initial playtest on him.