Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

[caps]

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. Add one to your roll for each shield rolled in the defense roll. If you roll an 18 or higher, inflict one wound on the attack figure.

[Arch-vile]

That looks like a good starting point. I'd make it even simpler and go away with the adding to the roll:

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, inflict one wound on the attacking figure.

The die roll can be tweaked in playtesting.

[killercactus]

My last thought on the GW before I set it down was to make it an uncommon hero instead of common, and increase the points. My thought process was that Charos is the tank of the dragons, so the GW should be the tank of the wyrmlings instead of a melee screen. Then the power of Counterstrike isn't a huge deal, and now the wyrmlings have an OM sink to use with survivability.

Nobody likes that though - everyone was dead set on them being a common hero for some reason I can't figure out.

[dalu]

I like a true Wyrmling.
Defense 4 is too strong, the obvious solution is to decrease to defense 3 ?
It's high enough for a common flying figure.

I propose:
Move 5
Attack 3
Defense 3
30 points
Valiant
(If you prefer a stronger version, increase to attack 4 and 35 points.)
I like to keep it simple, and a true weaker version of Charos, without a D20.

FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if any excess shields are rolled the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit.

Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 3 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 48%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 32%
Against attack with 3 dice: 20%

A Wyrmling can easily get height advantage by flying.
Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 4 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 61%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 43%
Against attack with 3 dice: 30%

With a better bonus (Raelin or height+Gerda).
Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 5 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 70%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 54%
Against attack with 3 dice: 40%

[1moreheroscaper]

Considering these two the most:

Originally Posted by capsocrates

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. Add one to your roll for each shield rolled in the defense roll. If you roll an 18 or higher, inflict one wound on the attack figure.

Originally Posted by Arch-vile

That looks like a good starting point. I'd make it even simpler and go away with the adding to the roll:

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, inflict one wound on the attacking figure.

The die roll can be tweaked in playtesting.

I like the 16 or higher version (without a modifier for additional shields rolled by the fledging) the most because after considering the percentage of successfully rolling excessive defense dice, you then only have a 25% of inflicting the one counterstrike wound.

It seems fairly simple, and only a slightly modified version of Charos. I also think the defense needs to be 4 dice if the movement is 4 (even considering how they can gain height easier with FLYING.

So I envision:

LIFE 1
MOVE 4
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3 or 4
DEFENSE 4

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, inflict one wound on the attacking figure.

WYRMLING BONDING

FLYING

30 or 35 POINTS (depending on attack value)

*This is only based on the quick testing of: ROTV Raelin + 2 x Green Wyrmlings VS. Eldgrim + Tarn Vikings + 1 x Knights of Weston

[Unhinged Manchild]

I was thinking that making them uncommon could be a good route too... but I figured it wouldn't fly with most people.

Also, the idea of rolling D20 to determine if CS can inflict a wound could be a nice idea.

Something like:
If GW rolls excess shields, roll D20, if you get 15 or higher, inflict one wound on the defending figure. Each excess shield would add (some amount, maybe 2 or 3) to your D20 roll. So in reality, base CS would actually inflict a wound on a 13 or higher, since you need one more shield to the attacker's skulls for it to even activate.

I'm not a rules lawyer, and clearly I couldn't quite word this power the best way possible... I'm just trying to give you guys ideas

[Crixus33]

My idea would be that the counter strike only woks against small (maybe medium) figures. My reasoning is that in Charos's bio the way he counter strikes is with his wings and a small wyrmling with small wings wouldn't be able to counter strike a larger figure.

My

[TnT2]

Interesting thread. I'd love to see a Green Wyrmling.

Here's my idea.

Fledging Counterstrike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if no blanks are rolled, then any excess shields that are rolled count as unblockable hits on the attacker.

With 4D defence there is a 48% chance that no blanks are rolled. With 5D this drops to 40%. Though there is still a risk to melee attackers, it is reduced. As well, adding Raelin actually reduces the chance counterstrike occurs.

[dok]

Originally Posted by TnT2

Fledging Counterstrike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if no blanks are rolled, then any excess shields that are rolled count as unblockable hits on the attacker.

FWIW, the number of shields rolled and symbols rolled are not independent. So the power is a bit better than the odds you cite suggest.

Personally, I don't like powers that penalize you for getting more dice, although I recognize there is precedent for this in powers like Maul and Venomous Sting.

The bigger issue is that all official powers, aside from flagbearer powers of course, are compatible with the red and blue dice, and I'd prefer to stick with that.

[TnT2]

You are correct, the sides of the dice are not independent. However, the chance you roll NO BLANKS is 48%. However, within this, there is a stronger likelihood you rolled lots of shields. So, the average number of shields rolled is higher when counterstrike is activated. But it is still only 48% of the time.

And it is not as though you are worse off with more dice. You will defend. You just won't get counterstrike as often.

I should just do the work and calculte the odds....

But, your idea, your call. And your comment wrt the red and blue dice is valid. Though how many of those are still in play?

I look forward to seeing the final result

[dok]

Originally Posted by TnT2

You are correct, the sides of the dice are not independent. However, the chance you roll NO BLANKS is 48%. However, within this, there is a stronger likelihood you rolled lots of shields. So, the average number of shields rolled is higher when counterstrike is activated. But it is still only 48% of the time.

The point I'm trying to make is that the 48% number is meaningless, because you will not roll no blanks 48% of the time when you have excess shields.

For example, say your opponent rolled 1 skull. The chance you roll 0 blanks is 48%. But all that is relevant is the chance you roll 0 blanks if you roll 2 or more shields.

The chance of rolling 2 shields is 6*(1/3)^2*(2/3)^2 = 30%.
The chance of rolling 3 shields is 4*(1/3)^3*(2/3) = 5%.
The chance of rolling 4 shields is (1/3)^4 = 1.2%.

The chance of rolling a symbol if you roll 2 shields on 4 dice is 44%.
The chance of rolling a symbol if you roll 3 shields on 4 dice is 25%.
The chance of rolling a symbol if you roll 4 shields on 4 dice is 0%.

The chance of the symbol "blocking" a 2-shield counterstrike is 30%*44% = 13%.
The chance of the symbol "blocking" a 3-shield counterstrike is 5%*25* = 1.25%.
The chance of the symbol "blocking" a 4-shield counterstrike is 0%.

So the total chance of the symbol "blocking" counterstrike on a 1-skull attack is NOT 52% (the chance of rolling at least 1 symbol on 4 dice). It is about 14%. The fact that you would roll a symbol on a very high percentage of 1-shield and 0-shield rolls is not relevant, because there's no counterstrike to prevent.

If we look at it as a percentage of counterstrikes that get blocked, it does seem more meaningful. The symbol will prevent 14%/36% = 39% of successful counterstrikes, which is a significant percentage. But less than 52%.

Originally Posted by TnT2

But, your idea, your call.

I don't really intend to take "ownership" of the Green Wyrmling design here. I'm just hoping we can come to some conclusions on what is worth trying and then have a centralized clearinghouse for tests. I'm just trying to guide the discussion.

[XDVincent]

For all that its worth the best idea I think we've seen is the ability to only deal a maximum of 1 wound no matter the ne'er of excess shields. If you look at all the other wyrmlings powers compared to their dragon counterpart the abilities are toned down powers of the original dragons in the idea that heroes are less susceptible to the attack than squads. This is especially true in the black and red powers. But even the blue and white as the both only have an attack of two and outside of a select few heroes, which are typically used as filler anyways, they will almost always roll more defense dice outside of any modifiers outside of what was already on the card.