The Pre-SoV Workshop

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by kevindola

As Evar suggested: Get rid of disengage and add the disengage text to the end of UM.

Change Devour to:
Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Shulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space within 4 spaces of Ashi-Shulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Shulu’s height. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Shulu on that space. Ashi-Shulu does not taking any leaving engagement attacks when using Devour.

Didn't even notice your post, my bad.

Something along those lines could work. I've edited it below:

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Dhulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space within 4 spaces of Ashi-Dhulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Dhulu’s height or 3 levels below Ashi-Dhulu's base. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Dhulu on that space. Ashi-Dhulu does not taking any leaving engagement attacks when using Devour.

Disengage would still have to be listed separately. Due to Underground Movement's original wording.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by dok

Assuming you keep Disengage as a standalone power, if you want equivalence to the current power, you need:

Instead of moving and attacking normally, Ashi-Shulu may Devour. Choose a small or medium common figure on a non-water space that does not contain a glyph within 4 spaces of Ashi-Shulu that is no higher than one level above Ashi-Shulu’s height or three levels below his base. Destroy that figure and place Ashi-Shulu on that space.

... but then you end up with really similar language in the first two powers, which seems weird in its own way.

Personally, I like the current language for the reason I suggested it to Mega: i.e. that I only need to read one power. I already know how UM and Disengage work. Each power piggybacks on the ones that follow.

Thanks dok. Either version will work for me, since they effectively do the same thing.

And actually, for the sense of re-use, which for a lot of the members of VC is important, the new version would be better to use.

[dok]

I don't think Devour, in that form, is likely to get re-used anyway.

I actually suggested a different form in an edit:

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Underground Movement if the figure were not there. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Underground Movement.

But ultimately these two forms are equivalent. Bootstrapping on the UM language that's already on the card makes more sense to me than repeating that language twice on the same card, but you can go either way.

[Evar-Scarcarver]

Originally Posted by dok

There's really no precedent for identically-named powers being different, and when they differ in a somewhat subtle way like that it's even worse.

I only became aware of this somewhat recently, but Taelord has this. He technically has Stealth Flying, but because stealth flying wasn't invented yet, they reused the flying name and added the Disengage language.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Evar-Scarcarver

I only became aware of this somewhat recently, but Taelord has this. He technically has Stealth Flying, but because stealth flying wasn't invented yet, they reused the flying name and added the Disengage language.

It was errata'ed into Stealth Flying (see the FAQ). The designers regarded this as an error.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Evar-Scarcarver

I only became aware of this somewhat recently, but Taelord has this. He technically has Stealth Flying, but because stealth flying wasn't invented yet, they reused the flying name and added the Disengage language.

Originally, they ruled that as a typo and said it was still Flying, then retconned that to say it's Stealth Flying.

Flying's a more common power too, and Underground Movement is used by only one figure that's not used that much. In this case it's better to be redundant and read Disengage instead of having people assume that the Earth Elemental's UM has Disengage.

[awesomeunleashed]

Originally Posted by Evar-Scarcarver

I only became aware of this somewhat recently, but Taelord has this. He technically has Stealth Flying, but because stealth flying wasn't invented yet, they reused the flying name and added the Disengage language.

Not really. Firstly, they didn't add anything to Flying; they removed the last sentence. Second, the card was errata'ed to normal Stealth Flying, so obviously it isn't a precedent that should be followed.

I agree with dok. Not having to read 2/3 powers is a plus.

[Son of Arathorn]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

The original version of Underground Movement did not allow Disengage, so adding that to the end of it would confuse people even more.

...

What if the powers were put in reverse order? Evar understood how it worked better because he read it in reverse order.

I would just tack Disengage on the end of underground movement, and rename it Stealth Underground Movement. Worked for the flying special power.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

I would just tack Disengage on the end of underground movement, and rename it Stealth Underground Movement. Worked for the flying special power.

Silent Underground Movement sounds cooler.

But yes, that would work better.

[dok]

I guess Stealth Underground Movement is a pretty easy power for an experienced player to guess at. OK, new suggestions:

STEALTH UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT
Instead of moving normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may immediately place him on any empty non-water space that is within 4 spaces of Ashi-Dhulu and is no higher than 1 level above Ashi-Dhulu's height or 3 levels below Ashi-Dhulu's base. If Ashi-Dhulu is engaged when he starts his Underground Movement, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement if the figure were not there. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Stealth Underground Movement.

As I said before, you could parrot the underground movement language in the second power, but I think this is easier to follow. YMMV.

[Ixe]

Alright, let's do a breakdown on Ashi-Dhulu by Megasliver (with apparent formatting help from Dok).

At 115 pts, Ashi-Dhulu's stats at first appear middling to a little below average for a unique. While 4 defense is not terrible, Agent Carr has certainly demonstrated that 4 defense with 4 life does not give you anywhere near the staying power that you would otherwise hope. Four attack is also a decent enough attack to harass large or unique squads and have a chance at wounding a hero.

When we start considering the powers we can begin to see the value in this creature. Underground Movement greatly increases it's maneuverability, especially if it is worded into Stealth Underground Movement. I particularly support that change not only because I feel that it reads better, but also because I do not feel that it was the intention to have it be able to disengage on a normal move as well. With this power, the demon can pop around the battlefield to pursue priority targets. Undergound movement is more powerful with this devourer given it's height of 8, allowing it to climb as high as nine with the ability.

The key power to focus on is Devour, immediately drawing parallels to Grimnak's Chomp. To my knowledge, this will be the only other power with guaranteed destruction of a unit. Unlike Chomp, Devour is even more limited in what it can affect with chomp able to destroy unique squads and have a chance to kill small or medium all heroes, while devour only claims commons. The devour ability allows for much more maneuverability than Grimnak has and even gives the possibility of claiming the high ground or taking a glyph in the process of consuming the little commoner. I overall like that it can get all common figures of appropriate size than merely common squads and act as an effective foil against pseudo-squads like the wyrmlings and the thralls.

This certainly leads to a very interesting unit with some very interesting abilities. It seems that Ashi-Dhulu strengths are only seen in particular match ups, however. While the demon can kill common squad members effortlessly, it can only manage to destroy one per round (as opposed to Grimnak's potential two). Therefore, I suspect that the devourer will find it challenging to kill its points worth against cheaper common squads who may simply surround and destroy the 4 life creature. In truth, I feel that he plays better against higher point squads like minions, assuming he can live long enough to strike again. Beyond that, he may especially shine against common hero pseudo-squads for their typically high point cost per figure ratio. With the undergound movement, there may even be some battles where he can play an effective assassin for going in and taking out a key unit with his 4 attack. Though a little expensive, his abilities seem fantastic as a clean up hero in picking off the remaining, spread out commoners about the field. If the enemy is more spread, it makes it harder for him to be surrounded and quickly killed and more likely to strike and kill again.

Thematically, I am not convinced that it's a demon but I'm fine with going for it. The only synergy that grants is a movement bonus which is largely irrelevant given it's special power. As a devourer, it benefits from the dumetef which is marginal but still fine. I don't know if it's menacing per se, but I don't really have an issue with it.

In all, this worm-like creature seems to hit upon the a previously untapped trope quite well and about as you'd expect. It seems like it should be effective in certain builds and struggling in others, but that also isn't really a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if the point total needed a little manipulating, but with only 4 life and defense I suspect Ashi-Dhulu won't be too much of an unstoppable menace. I am quite curious to hear how it plays as clean up and how devastating it may be in that role.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by dok

There's really no precedent for identically-named powers being different, and when they differ in a somewhat subtle way like that it's even worse.

Well there is Charos and Cap's Counterstrike vs. the Samurais' Counterstrike.