What Exactly is "Balanced"

[Kroz]

I actually had a game where two squads of shades took down more than half of an orc army. That two defense with juicy heroes helps a lot.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Kroz

I actually had a game where two squads of shades took down more than half of an orc army. That two defense with juicy heroes helps a lot.

I've had games where the Shades were rolling hot, and it's even better with adjacency powers. Try to take over a hero&attempt a squaddie kill makes for a nervous opponent

[Revdyer]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

Somehow Legacy has been turned into the figurehead for some imaginary clan of finger-pointing Heroscape extremists hell-bent on imposing some scary fundamentalist new world order. No such group exists, as far as I know. No warrant for anything like this has appeared in this thread. And I would like to suggest that the witch-hunt be called off.

The first rule of any "clan of finger-pointing...extremists hell-bend on imposing some scary fundamentalist new world order" is to deny that any "such group exists." <grin>

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

The first rule of any "clan of finger-pointing...extremists hell-bend on imposing some scary fundamentalist new world order" is to deny that any "such group exists." <grin>

They're on to us!
<quickly begins shredding documents>

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Elginb

So, just to clarify, is it the opinion of the Legacy folks that adjusting points is the only way to balance the game? Is it the opinion of the Legacy folks that the Heroscape community as a whole should adopt these adjusted points?

Legacy is not the only way to balance figures. The CUC method (where they alter the card's abilities) is equally valid. Personally, I think that Legacy is the easier way to adjust cards than to totally change abilities/stats.

I think the ideal is legacy for the majority of the units and then CUC for the units that are still flawed (Templars, Groks, etc)

[Kroz]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Legacy is not the only way to balance figures. The CUC method (where they alter the card's abilities) is equally valid. Personally, I think that Legacy is the easier way to adjust cards than to totally change abilities/stats.

I think the ideal is legacy for the majority of the units and then CUC for the units that are still flawed (Templars, Groks, etc)

CUC is best in my opinion for units that are D/F grade units.

[CornPuff]

Originally Posted by Kroz

Last is the actual points. I can literally play a handicapped game to balance it out. Balance isn't just giving equally matched opponents a 50/50 chance of winning but giving UNequally matched opponents that same 50/50 chance of winning. The way the point system is set up, I can do just that. I love playing heroscape but I can't have fun if no one will want to play with me at home. Therefor my main goal is to make the game as fun for everyone else as possible. If everyone else is happy, then I'm happy.

I agree with most of this. The last time I introduced somebody to the game I gave them a tier 2 podge of units and I played Spartacus, Crixus and Retiarius. It was a surprisingly close game and fun was had by all.

If you want to create an even match with uneven opponents, you do that through army selection. Even if the points were optimized for unit balance you can still create well tuned armies or non-synergistic podges. If you can't understand the 'What's in an order marker' color codes, you are liable to make a terrible army. Which is good, if you want to handicap yourself against a poor player.

Short answer is that a balancing the units does not mean all armies have the same power. Same argument applies to CUC and Legacy.

[Farmer_Poopy]

Originally Posted by dok

Maybe computer games like starcraft/Warcraft/AoE/AoM are a good example of what InfraredFog is driving at. Different factions that play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses, but are awfully well-balanced against one another.

Sorry for quoting something so far back but I just had to...

I believe starcraft is as close as you will ever get... the game is so insanely balanced it is South Korea's "sport" yep that's right, a video game as a national sport. It doesn't have total balance though because of maps, will favor a certain race, while on other maps that same race will totaly fail. Much like Heroscape will melee favored maps and range favored maps (the heroscape equivalent to "races" would probably generals or certain armies)

[Revdyer]

Although this has nothing to do with the tournament scene, it does speak to the basic balance of the game as textus receptus...

My friend Jon and I play, usually two games an afternoon or evening, twice a week. Our rule is that if you win, you have to keep the same army. The other player (the loser) gets to choose a different army. No surprise, we usually play one win and one loss on most days. We also get a lot of pleasure from the game, because our "system" lifts up the "rock, scissors, paper" genius of the HeroScape design. Although not a rule, we also congratulate one another on including the lesser lights of the game from time to time. It keeps the game fresh for us and I continue, unabashedly, impressed with the balance the designers have given us to work with.

[Chardar]

"Balanced" simply means that two players can sit down at a table and play a game of Heroscape without either player feeling like the game was unfair. The game should end with both players feeling equally satisfied. That is all the more balance that the game has given us, but that's all the more balanced that the game needs to be, at least at my table.

EDIT: I think Revdyer and his friend have beyond mastered this point in the above post.

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Chardar

"Balanced" simply means that two players can sit down at a table and play a game of Heroscape without either player feeling like the game was unfair. The game should end with both players feeling equally satisfied. That is all the more balance that the game has given us, but that's all the more balanced that the game needs to be, at least at my table.

EDIT: I think Revdyer and his friend have beyond mastered this point in the above post.

I've been in many games where it felt completely unfair. When you sit down with 6x 4th Mass and your opponent puts down a Deathwalker army or an Elf Wizard army.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I've been in many games where it felt completely unfair. When you sit down with 6x 4th Mass and your opponent puts down a Deathwalker army or an Elf Wizard army.

I know!

There are times where it would feel like DW8000 could not stop killing minute men. Again and again they would die. I think I took maybe 4 turns the whole game.

And don't get me started about the elf wizards. Between Jorhdawn fire blasting my startzone and Chardaris fallowing up there was nothing I could do.

Sometimes I really think the metagame is broken.