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  #1  
Old November 16th, 2010, 11:09 PM
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Heroscape: Legacy

Heroscape: Legacy

Heroscape: Legacy is an alternative unit cost system for Heroscape. This system is designed so you can play with the official figures the way they were written, but with an alternative cost system so all units are equally competitive.

When you play with Heroscape: Legacy, use all of the normal rules of Heroscape, except use Legacy Points instead of the printed point value on the card. Like the original Heroscape point system, Heroscape: Legacy is optimized for games between 400 and 600 points, but you are welcome to play with any army size you want.

Who is it for?

This is for fans of Heroscape that want to have fun with all of their units, not just the units considered 'good.' You'll notice the best units have gone up in price, and some of the least used units have gone down in price. Whether you just play for fun, or want to spice up your next tournament Heroscape: Legacy will redefine what it means to have a well put together army.

This is the Winter 2010 publication of Heroscape: Legacy. Even though new official figures are no longer being produced, these point values may change after months of playtests and feedback. The goal is always to produce the most balanced costs possible. The next Heroscape: Legacy publication is planned for Spring 2011 and relies on your feedback.

Here are all the units, sorted by Legacy cost:

Spoiler Alert!


Now that you know what it is, get this pdf! The pdf is sorted by name of unit for reference, and has a summary of how to use Heroscape: Legacy.

HeroscapeLegacy.pdf

Addendum: Samuel Brown was released after Heroscape: Legacy! Play him at 60 Legacy points, which is his printed value.

Once you've got the pdf, if you want something a little more flexible to help you build your army check out the spreadsheet. You should be able to sort the spreadsheet by Legacy point value, printed point value, cost difference, name or even a stat like range or defense:

HeroscapeLegacy.xls (For Microsoft Excel)

HeroscapeLegacy.numbers (For Apple iWork users)

To use the spreadsheets well you should probably sort them by column. I find sorting by 'Legacy Points' to be the most useful when designing an army.

Kolakoski started a thread about competitive Legacy armies. Check it out and add your army ideas!

Heroscape - Legacy Competitive Armies

Have fun!

If you have feedback on unit costs, you should post to this thread. Good feedback should include why unit A's Legacy cost is too high or too low. If you think you would never draft them because unit B is always better, that's great feedback. This feedback is super helpful for the Spring revision, so get in some games over the holidays and post it to here!

Changes:
12-1-10: Added spoiler to show all units sorted by Legacy cost. Posted addendum regarding Samuel Brown. Expanded on some text.
12-17-10: removed extra "" around Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
02-06-11: added a link to the competitive Legacy armies thread.

Last edited by CornPuff; February 8th, 2011 at 08:45 PM. Reason: added a link to the competitive Legacy armies thread.
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  #2  
Old November 16th, 2010, 11:19 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

I think these point values look like I great addition. I can't wait to try these out.

This also reminds me of the work going on over at the Competitive Unit Congress.

While definitely distinct, it seems to be in the same vein as your Heroscape: Legacy. You should go check it out!

My Maps:

Also, check out the Competitive Unit Congress

Last edited by Paronychodon; November 16th, 2010 at 11:26 PM.
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  #3  
Old November 16th, 2010, 11:22 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Wow, Cornpuff this looks good.

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  #4  
Old November 17th, 2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Looking forward to trying this out. Sounds like a great concept--I'm definitely among the Scapers that feels that 95% of all balance issues come down to tinkering with the point values to match the metagame. This seems like a smart way to adjust units to match with the current metagame.

Thanks for all your work on this!
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  #5  
Old November 17th, 2010, 12:37 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

dok has been continually working on something like this. Not sure he has a thread for it, but here are a list of values I found, not sure how recent they are either.... maybe you could compare.

Code:
85    10th Regiment of Foot 
90    4th Mass. Line 
255    Abomination 
80    Acolarh 
85    Agent Carr 
140    Agent Skahen 
25    Air Elemental 
125    Airborne Elite 
125    Alastair MacDirk 
100    Ana Karithon 
70    Anubian Wolves 
50    Arkmer 
50    Armoc Vipers 
45    Arrow Gruts 
55    Ashigaru Harquebus 
40    Ashigaru Yari 
115    Atlaga 
75    Aubrien Archers 
30    Blade Gruts 
70    Blastatrons 
60    Brandis Skyhunter 
55    Brave Arrow 
235    Braxas 
110    Brunak 
260    Captain America 
75    Capuan Gladiators 
65    Chardris 
180    Charos 
70    Concan the Kyrie Warrior 
90    Crixus 
185    Cyprien Esenwein 
55    Darrak Ambershard 
35    Deadeye Dan 
60    Deathreavers 
70    Deathstalkers 
50    Deathwalker 7000 
100    Deathwalker 8000 
105    Deathwalker 9000 
70    Deepwyrm Drow 
170    Dr. Doom 
25    Drow Chainfighter 
20    Dumutef Guard 
80    DŁnd 
45    Dzu-Teh 
25    Earth Elemental 
30    Eldgrim the Viking Champion 
65    Elite Onyx Vipers 
60    Emirroon 
55    Empress Kiova 
55    Erevan Sunshadow 
75    Estivara 
135    Fen Hydra 
70    Feral Troll 
80    Finn the Viking Champion 
30    Fire Elemental 
35    Fyorlag Spiders 
90    Gladiatrons 
70    Gorillinators 
100    Granite Guardians 
90    Greater Ice Elemental 
70    Greenscale Warriors 
135    Grimnak 
100    Grok Riders 
35    Guilty McCreech 
70    Gurei-Oni 
60    Hatamoto Taro 
80    Heavy Gruts 
365    Incredible Hulk 
220    Iron Man 
30    Isamu 
45    Iskra Esenwein 
70    Izumi Samurai 
75    James Murphy 
60    Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan 
75    Jorhdawn 
180    Jotun 
135    Kaemon Awa
185    Kato Katsuro 
105    Kee-Mo-Shi 
60    Kelda the Kyrie Warrior 
60    Khosumet the Darklord 
80    Knights of Weston
90    Kozuke Samurai 
135    Krav Maga Agents 
115    Krug 
55    Kumiko 
20    Kyntela Gwyn 
130    Laglor 
75    MacDirk Warriors 
155    Major Q10 
210    Major Q9 
50    Major X17
25    Marcu Esenwein 
105    Marcus Decimus Gallus 
70    Marrden Hounds 
40    Marrden Nagrubs 
55    Marro Dividers 
50    Marro Drones 
25    Marro Drudge 
160    Marro Hive 
80    Marro Stingers 
60    Marro Warriors 
125    Master Win Chiu Woo 
55    Me-Burq-Sa 
85    Microcorp Agents 
115    Migol Ironwill 
115    Mimring 
125    Minions of Utgar 
135    Mogrimm Forgehammer 
75    Mohican River Tribe 
70    Moriko 
85    Morsbane 
125    Nakita Agents 
90    Ne-Gok-Sa 
65    Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider 
205    Nilfheim 
90    Ninjas of the Northern Wind 
60    Obsidian Guards 
30    Omnicron Repulsors 
100    Omnicron Snipers 
90    Ornak 
120    Othkurik the Black Dragon 
20    Otonashi 
60    Parmenio 
80    Pelloth 
85    Phantom Knights 
110    Protectors of Ullar 
80    Quasatch Hunters 
135    Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV 
115    Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-SOTM 
45    Rechets of Bogdan 
135    Red Skull 
70    Retiarius 
45    Roman Archers 
55    Roman Legionnaires 
70    Runa 
45    Sacred Band 
20    Sahuagin Raider 
60    Saylind the Kyrie Warrior 
100    Sentinels of Jandar 
115    Sgt. Drake Alexander-ROTV 
180    Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM 
75    Shades of Bleakewoode 
60    Shaolin Monks 
105    Sharwin Wildborn 
30    Shiori 
355    Silver Surfer 
75    Sir Denrick 
105    Sir Dupuis 
125    Sir Gilbert 
75    Sir Hawthorne 
130    Sonlen 
50    Sonya Esenwein 
210    Spartacus 
135    Spider-Man 
150    Su-Bak-Na 
95    Sudema 
160    Sujoah 
20    Swog Rider 
100    Syvarris 
165    Taelord the Kyrie Warrior 
115    Tagawa Samurai 
70    Tagawa Samurai Archers 
95    Tandros Kreel 
45    Tarn Viking Warriors 
70    Templar Cavalry 
330    Thanos 
80    The Axegrinders of Burning Forge 
105    The Einar Imperium 
45    Theracus 
60    Thorgrim the Viking Champion 
230    Tor-Kul-Na
100    Torin
85    Tornak 
110    Tul-Bak-Ra 
120    Ulginesh 
90    Valguard 
45    Venoc Vipers 
125    Venoc Warlord 
155    Venom 
65    Warden 816 
50    Warriors of Ashra 
30    Water Elemental 
100    Wo-Sa-Ga
80    Wolves of Badru
100    Wyvern 
205    Zelrig 
60    Zetacron 
60    Zettian Guards 
60    Zombies of Morindan
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  #6  
Old November 17th, 2010, 01:40 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

How did you make these point determinations?

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Old November 17th, 2010, 01:46 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiyu0707 View Post
dok has been continually working on something like this. Not sure he has a thread for it, but here are a list of values I found, not sure how recent they are either.... maybe you could compare.

Code:
85    10th Regiment of Foot 
90    4th Mass. Line 
255    Abomination 
80    Acolarh 
85    Agent Carr 
140    Agent Skahen 
25    Air Elemental 
125    Airborne Elite 
125    Alastair MacDirk 
100    Ana Karithon 
70    Anubian Wolves 
50    Arkmer 
50    Armoc Vipers 
45    Arrow Gruts 
55    Ashigaru Harquebus 
40    Ashigaru Yari 
115    Atlaga 
75    Aubrien Archers 
30    Blade Gruts 
70    Blastatrons 
60    Brandis Skyhunter 
55    Brave Arrow 
235    Braxas 
110    Brunak 
260    Captain America 
75    Capuan Gladiators 
65    Chardris 
180    Charos 
70    Concan the Kyrie Warrior 
90    Crixus 
185    Cyprien Esenwein 
55    Darrak Ambershard 
35    Deadeye Dan 
60    Deathreavers 
70    Deathstalkers 
50    Deathwalker 7000 
100    Deathwalker 8000 
105    Deathwalker 9000 
70    Deepwyrm Drow 
170    Dr. Doom 
25    Drow Chainfighter 
20    Dumutef Guard 
80    DŁnd 
45    Dzu-Teh 
25    Earth Elemental 
30    Eldgrim the Viking Champion 
65    Elite Onyx Vipers 
60    Emirroon 
55    Empress Kiova 
55    Erevan Sunshadow 
75    Estivara 
135    Fen Hydra 
70    Feral Troll 
80    Finn the Viking Champion 
30    Fire Elemental 
35    Fyorlag Spiders 
90    Gladiatrons 
70    Gorillinators 
100    Granite Guardians 
90    Greater Ice Elemental 
70    Greenscale Warriors 
135    Grimnak 
100    Grok Riders 
35    Guilty McCreech 
70    Gurei-Oni 
60    Hatamoto Taro 
80    Heavy Gruts 
365    Incredible Hulk 
220    Iron Man 
30    Isamu 
45    Iskra Esenwein 
70    Izumi Samurai 
75    James Murphy 
60    Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan 
75    Jorhdawn 
180    Jotun 
135    Kaemon Awa
185    Kato Katsuro 
105    Kee-Mo-Shi 
60    Kelda the Kyrie Warrior 
60    Khosumet the Darklord 
80    Knights of Weston
90    Kozuke Samurai 
135    Krav Maga Agents 
115    Krug 
55    Kumiko 
20    Kyntela Gwyn 
130    Laglor 
75    MacDirk Warriors 
155    Major Q10 
210    Major Q9 
50    Major X17
25    Marcu Esenwein 
105    Marcus Decimus Gallus 
70    Marrden Hounds 
40    Marrden Nagrubs 
55    Marro Dividers 
50    Marro Drones 
25    Marro Drudge 
160    Marro Hive 
80    Marro Stingers 
60    Marro Warriors 
125    Master Win Chiu Woo 
55    Me-Burq-Sa 
85    Microcorp Agents 
115    Migol Ironwill 
115    Mimring 
125    Minions of Utgar 
135    Mogrimm Forgehammer 
75    Mohican River Tribe 
70    Moriko 
85    Morsbane 
125    Nakita Agents 
90    Ne-Gok-Sa 
65    Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider 
205    Nilfheim 
90    Ninjas of the Northern Wind 
60    Obsidian Guards 
30    Omnicron Repulsors 
100    Omnicron Snipers 
90    Ornak 
120    Othkurik the Black Dragon 
20    Otonashi 
60    Parmenio 
80    Pelloth 
85    Phantom Knights 
110    Protectors of Ullar 
80    Quasatch Hunters 
135    Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV 
115    Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-SOTM 
45    Rechets of Bogdan 
135    Red Skull 
70    Retiarius 
45    Roman Archers 
55    Roman Legionnaires 
70    Runa 
45    Sacred Band 
20    Sahuagin Raider 
60    Saylind the Kyrie Warrior 
100    Sentinels of Jandar 
115    Sgt. Drake Alexander-ROTV 
180    Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM 
75    Shades of Bleakewoode 
60    Shaolin Monks 
105    Sharwin Wildborn 
30    Shiori 
355    Silver Surfer 
75    Sir Denrick 
105    Sir Dupuis 
125    Sir Gilbert 
75    Sir Hawthorne 
130    Sonlen 
50    Sonya Esenwein 
210    Spartacus 
135    Spider-Man 
150    Su-Bak-Na 
95    Sudema 
160    Sujoah 
20    Swog Rider 
100    Syvarris 
165    Taelord the Kyrie Warrior 
115    Tagawa Samurai 
70    Tagawa Samurai Archers 
95    Tandros Kreel 
45    Tarn Viking Warriors 
70    Templar Cavalry 
330    Thanos 
80    The Axegrinders of Burning Forge 
105    The Einar Imperium 
45    Theracus 
60    Thorgrim the Viking Champion 
230    Tor-Kul-Na
100    Torin
85    Tornak 
110    Tul-Bak-Ra 
120    Ulginesh 
90    Valguard 
45    Venoc Vipers 
125    Venoc Warlord 
155    Venom 
65    Warden 816 
50    Warriors of Ashra 
30    Water Elemental 
100    Wo-Sa-Ga
80    Wolves of Badru
100    Wyvern 
205    Zelrig 
60    Zetacron 
60    Zettian Guards 
60    Zombies of Morindan
Those values came out of the results of my initial auction-based draft trial. I started with a similar approach to Cornpuff, here: I created starting bids for each figure based on their power rankings. The values there are the final bids for every figure, with figures that didn't receive bids being discounted further and figures that only received one bid getting pushed up in price. I then adjusted all the prices so that the average army purchased had about as much material as a typical 500 point army.

It is interesting to compare the differences. There are many cases where the prices end up identical (10th Regiment, Zelrig, and TKN, to name three), but the auction results definitely produced some real outliers. I think it would be interesting to do a full side-by-side comparison.

The issue with the auction trial is that, unless you get a huge number of bidders, you won't get a clear picture of how all figures are valued against one another. Also, an auction will naturally inflate the value of filler figures and figures that provide generic bonuses to many armies.
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  #8  
Old November 17th, 2010, 06:41 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Wow, that's pretty cool. I hadn't seen the auction-based draft trial before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killometer
How did you make these point determinations?
To get my numbers I started with all the unit costs and their power rankings and ran them through a formula, and then made hand tweaks here or there. I don't want to put the formula under too much scrutiny because ultimately it was a tool that was used once and discarded. Now that we have the Winter 2010 Legacy point values, they will evolve based on the community's feedback and not droll mathematics.

As a rule of thumb, the B units stayed right where they were and the further a unit was from B the more their cost changed. The goal is to create interesting decisions while creating an army, and to make as many figures viable as possible. I didn't want to create an inversion where Q9 is undraftable, I just want there to be be a lot of options. Perhaps most of all, I want to see someone fielding all 3 deathwalkers in a non-ironic fashion

I also didn't want to change what it means to have a 500 point army. The average cost per card in Heroscape is 100.7, in Heroscape: Legacy the average cost per card is 98. For comparison, in dok's auction the average turned out to be 93.

I think these numbers are a good start. The next step is feedback.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:00 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Do those averages include marvelscape?
Why are there so many odd number values?
What was the formula you used?
Did you realize that not all units are meant to be A+?
Or, it sounds like you're trying to make them all an average C.
Oops, I almost forgot...
Do you enjoy spitting in the eyes of the design team by disregarding their work? You do realize that they didn't try to make all units the best unit.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:15 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Kaemon Awa 123, you should note that "Heroscape: Legacy is an alternative unit cost system for Heroscape"
If you don't want to use this alternative system, then I suggest you keep playing the 'scape the way you currently do.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:39 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Well, you've got to consider that no matter what he costs, DW7000 always has potential to swing the game vastly in you favor. The reason why he isn't picked that much is that there is more consistent options, while not better ones when DW reaches his full potential. However, at 65 points, he can be fit into more 500 point builds, therefore making him overpowered. I don't want to see games decided by who rolls better with DW7000.

Anyway, I'll back out of this discussion because no matter what you do, I'll always disagree with this sort of thing. Besides, I'm in a bad mood due to vast amounts of homework... plus this is the sort of thing that results in neg-rep and I don't feel like getting that...
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Old November 17th, 2010, 10:06 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by CornPuff View Post
To get my numbers I started with all the unit costs and their power rankings and ran them through a formula, and then made hand tweaks here or there. I don't want to put the formula under too much scrutiny because ultimately it was a tool that was used once and discarded. Now that we have the Winter 2010 Legacy point values, they will evolve based on the community's feedback and not droll mathematics.

As a rule of thumb, the B units stayed right where they were and the further a unit was from B the more their cost changed. The goal is to create interesting decisions while creating an army, and to make as many figures viable as possible. I didn't want to create an inversion where Q9 is undraftable, I just want there to be be a lot of options. Perhaps most of all, I want to see someone fielding all 3 deathwalkers in a non-ironic fashion

I also didn't want to change what it means to have a 500 point army. The average cost per card in Heroscape is 100.7, in Heroscape: Legacy the average cost per card is 98. For comparison, in dok's auction the average turned out to be 93.

I think these numbers are a good start. The next step is feedback.
This exact concept was posted two months ago by myself. I really don't think arbitrarily setting the point values and "refining by testing" is the right approach.

The power rankings already exist for this purpose. Here is a link to the thread from September.

Sorry if this sounds snarky - which I guess it is... But I'm a little miffed by the fact that this thread has received so much attention while the one I created two months ago received very little feedback.

I think it would be beneficial for CornPuff and I to combine our efforts, and welcome the opportunity to do so if he is receptive to it.

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