Age of Annihilation - Backer Trend and Discussion

[rudyvalentine]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

The hope was that D&D players would rush out to Walmart and buy these, and that Walmart would see this and got on board the D&D train, and kids would buy them, and Heroscape fans would buy them etc.

Well I definitely bought them. But only to play Heroscape with. It would be many, many years later until I played a game of D&D.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by nyys

Not suggesting at all that people spend $$ they don't have. $250 is a lot to spend regardless of the value.

I think your point was on target. People comparing this offering to the mass market offering of 20 years ago are really out of touch, even if their feelings are valid, their facts are not.

[rudyvalentine]

Originally Posted by EricTheGreat1999

With all due respect, this point of comparison does not achieve to win the argument here. If people don't want to spend 250$ US on a board game crowdfunding project with lacklustre marketing, no matter the price per unit, then they're not going to buy it.

Yea, you might get more bang out of your buck now by buying 1$ hotdogs at Costco in 2022, compared to when it was still 1$ over a decade ago. Doesn't mean that people are desperately lining up to buy 1$ hotdogs.

I believe the cost point is something that is coming up more outside of these forums. I’ve seen comments on social media and YouTube about the high cost of the campaign and why can’t it be a $50 set, and that’s the issue these comments are addressing as far as I understand it. People who don’t understand how much a sizeable set of terrain and minis actually is now compared to 20 years ago.

But you’re right that it doesn’t change the fact that if you don’t have $250 to spend on a hobby or don’t want to spend this much on Heroscape, that’s valid.

[Master Roshi]

I think a hurdle that needs to be overcome is educating people on the R&D costs of making a set like this. It makes sense to me why it is priced at $250, but not everyone who glances at the page is going to understand the behind the scenes details that explain it. They're going to see $250 of plastic and think it's too much. Only a minority of people have any understanding on what injection molding is and what economy of scale means

[Knox]

No matter how small the starter set is it couldn't have been less than $100 imo. And it would've been tiny at that price point

[SuperSamyon]

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

[caps]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

I don't think a game like Heroscape can be made at the price point that it used to. That's where the disconnect is. And I think it's why Avalon Hill went the way that they did--given the choice between a smaller $100 set (that the $50 crowd would still complain about) and a $250 set that has really good value relative to the dollar amount, they decided they would feel better about offering the latter. I wish so much they had offered *both* but that's out of our hands.

[brak88]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

All valid. And Haslab is definitely not a mass market option, nor is a special all in Vanguard Edition. Nor is the spending throughout a year point when instead they won't be getting everything for a year from now.

I guess they just overestimated the amount of super fans that'd buy this set, at least so far. There's still time to see if they try to figure out a way for new players to be part of the initial funding with smaller purchase options.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

Thanks for providing the "outside the geek bubble" perspective. Well said.

Originally Posted by brak88

And it's odd to me to see many stating on social media that they wish the game would come back, only to be like "well, I really only wanted like 4x of a common squad and two heroes for $50. After ten years of wanting, I just wanted like one 500 point army worth of stuff."

It's possible that for many 'Scape fans - particularly those who've hung around for the past 12 years - there really hasn't been a whole lot of "wanting," because VC sated the hunger for more 'Scape and thus AoA just looks like VC-quality units, but unpainted and more expensive.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

This is very true, but it is completely impossible for Heroscape to be reproduced as a mainstream game. It's only path to revival is the hobby market

[Master Roshi]

I don't think that the standards of wargaming are the norm for what a typical toy/ game consumer is accustomed to which is why they would be confused, because they are used to buying either a smaller quantity of product such as some action figures for their kids, or a board game with fewer and cheaper set of materials like Monopoly with cardboard and paper components. It is understandable why that group of people, which are the majority, would be confused and put off by the $250 price point which is the point I was making.
Since modern day Heroscape would need to be made at a higher price point due to the expensive cost of so much plastic, Hasbro would have a difficult time educating new players who aren't already wargaming fans of why that number was chosen; thus Hasbro would have a more difficult time attracting new players than they did back in 2004. And since new players are required to reach a goal of 8000 sets backed, they run into trouble with marketing to those new players.

[Hogg]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I think your point was on target. People comparing this offering to the mass market offering of 20 years ago are really out of touch, even if their feelings are valid, their facts are not.

Not just a mass market item, but RotV was a loss leader as I understand it. They were willing to make little/no profit because they knew they would be selling expansions.

I think one of the problems here is Hasbro's internal economy. I believe they have gotten so comfortable with the profit margin off of Magic Cards (basically printing money) that they expect to be able to make similar profits from all their products.

The failed Ghost Rider Haslab is a good example. They wanted $350 for a 1:12 scale car and said it couldn't be done cheaper. Meanwhile Mattel and McFarlane have similar products on the shelves in stores now for less than 1/3 of what Hasbro was asking.

I wonder what the actual production cost (+ shipping) of AoA is and how much of the $250 is markup. My guess is there is a substantial markup, unlike the first Master Set.

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

I think a lot of this is spot on. I've always joked that I would play Warhammer when I'm retired and wealthy because I don't have enough time/money now. HeroScape was Warhammer Light and I could play a game without too much investment in time or money.

The other games I looked into back then were Space Hulk and the Starcraft board game. Both of them were around $100 and that kept me from ever buying them, although I eventually accumulated much more than that in 'Scape.

I think part of the problem with the $250 price point for unpainted minis is that HeroScape lost the "Light" appeal and I can just go play Crisis Protocol or any other mini wargame if I'm going to have to invest that much time/money upfront.

I'm still in for AoA because it's HeroScape, but If I wasn't already into the game I wouldn't see as much appeal.

Ironically, this may have been much more successful if it had just gone up for order with the old business model of a Master set, expansions, and boosters and let people spend much more than $250 through the course of a year by making multiple smaller purchases.