The Book of Punisher

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Obviously, that was Sarcasm, Griff.

[Hahma]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Punisher @ 180 points

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass, if not, list your Theme Check observations. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass, if not, list your Mirror Check observations. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass, if not, list your Bonding Check observations. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass, if not, list your Synergy Check observations. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass, if not, list your Power Check observations. Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
-
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? Pass
All tests done on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map.

Vs Huntress (170) – Huntress wins with 3 wounds on T2R2. Punisher put 1 wound on with early normal attack with height, then 2 more with rocket attack. Punisher wanted to stay away from her 2 attacks of 5 from 2 spaces away. She put 1 wound on him from 5 spaces and then missed a couple more times with next attack. He had initiative for R2 with new rocket, but whiffed. She moved to 2 spaces away and rolled 5 skulls with first attack and he whiffed defense to die.

Vs. Huntress (170) – Punisher won with 2 wounds on T5R1. He missed with first normal attack and she put 2 wounds on from 2 spaces away with 2 attacks of 5. He moved adjacent and got height and attacked with shotgun to bypass Ruthless Counter Strike and had a 3/0, 2/2 and 1/0 attack to take her down. She’s more mobile and is able to close easy to not let him get more than one shot off with normal attack.

Vs. Jean Grey (180) – Jean Grey won with 0 wounds on T5R1. By Throwing herself to height after her second move, she put 2 wounds on him with norm attack. He tried to rocket attack her to help reduce her 6 def. w/height but only rolled 1 skull and missed. She then Threw him into water for 1 wound (3) and then attacked with norm attack w/ht for a 3/1 attack to kill him.

Vs. Jean Grey (180) – Punisher won with 2 wounds on T2R2. He was able to get his first attack off with height and put 2 wounds on her, she missed a Throw but put 1 wound on with norm attack. Her Psionic Grip stopped him from moving to higher ground so he attacked with Rocket for 1 more wound on her (3). She Threw him for 0 wounds and missed with norm attack. R2 she Threw him for a wound (2) and he blocked her 3 skull attack. He had new Rocket and killed her with it.

Vs. Black Canary (190) – Punisher won with 4 wounds on T1R2. He got early wound on her with norm attack, but she closed in and put 4 quick wounds on him with 2 Fist of Fury attacks. He put a wound on her with Shotgun (2). She missed with norm attack. He won initiative and put final 2 wounds on her with Shotgun.

Vs. Black Canary (190) – Black Canary won with 1 wound on T2R2. She put early wound on him with Canary Cry. He missed with Rocket. She moved adjacent and put 3 more wounds (4) on him with 2 FOF attacks. He missed with 3 shotgun attacks. T1 R2 he managed to only put 1 wound on her with 3 shotgun attacks. She put final wound on him.

He held his own pretty good against opponents with better mobility and better defense. While he does have a range of 7, it’s easy for opponent’s with move of 6 to close in, and if they have range, then his range advantage is kind of nullified unless he’s got some really good height advantage with obstacles slowing down opponents. All three opponent’s were pretty good hero killers.


Squad/ Does it pass? Pass
Played on Under The El map

Vs. Thugs x 2 +2 (10)(187.5) – Thugs win with 8 left on T1R2. Punisher was aggressive and should have stayed back awhile to snipe with range of 7. Small map allowed 2-4 attacks/turn and had concrete/asphalt bonus or height. Shotgun missed on first 3 attacks with poor rolls of 0,1 and 0. That allowed surviving Thugs to wound him more. His next Shotgun attacks took out 2 Thugs but then he just couldn’t survive the multiple ranged attacks with his 4 def. He never got to attack with Shotgun where Thugs were adjacent to each other for area of effect blast. Thugs are at their best when on urban map with concrete and asphalt.

Vs. Thugs x 2 +2 (10) 187.5) Thugs win with 3 left on T1R2. This time Punisher won initiative in R1 and made a dash to the ladder on Warehouse side of tracks. And he’s able to attack and kill 2 Thugs with Taking Down The Mob Attacks. Thugs moved and put 1 wound on him. Punisher moves partway up ladder and attacks with height with TDTM with starting attack of 5 (ht) and took down 2 of 3 Thugs he attacked. Thugs moved and 1 engaged him from below on the ladder and all 4 attacked and put 2 wounds on him (3). Punisher attacks again with TDTM starting with engaged one below on ladder and fortunately he killed him so he could attack and kill 2 more. 3 Thugs missed with next attacks. Thugs won initiative for R2 and killed him.

Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map.

Vs. Stingers x 3 (180) – Stingers win with 6 left on T5R1. Punisher killed 1 early from 6 spaces and then took 2 early wounds when only 1 Stinger could attack and he Drained for an attack of 4. They were spread out to avoid shotgun attacks hitting more than 1 at a time. He got too aggressive and killed 2 Stingers with separate shotgun blasts, but he fell on the next turn from a Stinger with height and a 3/0 attack.

Vs. Stingers x3 (180) – Punisher won with 3 wounds on T6R3. After killing one early with rocket, he gambled to get to height with 3 Stingers in Shotgun range (though all separate from each other). He killed 2 of 3. Once he established the high ground, he was able to attack with normal attack with height, rocket and shotgun attacks. He had some lucky breaks, but sometimes that’s what it takes.

Punisher has a nice variety of weapons to choose from for different situations. Though, that can get him in trouble with only a defense of 4 and only a move of 5. So vs. ranged squad opponents, he has to try to isolate them if possible and get to height if possible to strengthen his chances to survive.



Army Test 1/ Does it pass?

Batman, Punisher, and Daredevil VS Flash and Green Lantern
Griffin's Army Test Results

This led to change of Taking Down The Mob to Assault Rifle

Tests Vs. Iron Man after all final changes to alleviate concerns by Bats that 6 defense was too high and made him on par with Iron Man

[Griffin]

How much do you think he is worth Hahma? And would you be against his defense going up some, like to 5 maybe?

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Griffin

How much do you think he is worth Hahma? And would you be against his defense going up some, like to 5 maybe?

It's hard to tell exactly how much he's worth, maybe 170? I'd prefer him at 180 - 190. He's doing okay vs. heroes, though at times it's kind of scary. Not as good as I wanted vs. squads (ranged ones anyway). Actually there was one squad test vs. Stingers I didn't list where he only killed 1 before dying.

He's been changed from what I originally put up for 180. He had the 5 defense and I dropped that because there was concern that with a life of 5, that someone might need the def. dropped. His Taking Down the Mob didn't have a limit of attacks other than the number of dice he could keep using after they keep getting reduced, and he didn't have the requirement to attack different Criminals, Crime Lords or Masterminds. That was kind of reduced to 2 additional attacks do to concern of too powerful.

The Armor Piercing Rocket SA is nice, but only 1 time/round. The shotgun, while getting 3 attacks, isn't as effective ( as yet of course) as people might think because it's got a range of only 3 vs. the 4 I had originally had and vs. the 5 that is on the official shotgun SA. Bats suggested lowering it to 3 since it was a attack x 3. Maybe in an army test it might be different, but there wasn't a time that the opponent in my tests had their figures adjacent to each other to get multiple target damage with one shot. It was mostly a triple attack of 3 vs either the same or different opponents, but that was nice vs. Huntress when adjacent to bypass RCS. The other consideration and limitation of the shotgun is that it can harm his teammates if they are adjacent to the targeted figure, so there will very likely be times where you either take that risk or attack with normal attack or if you haven't used the rocket yet that round.

There isn't going to be a ton of Criminals to make TDTM overly nasty, but it's a thematic add that can be nasty when he does take on Criminal Faction. But when he doesn't, he's got a normal attack like Kaemon Awa R7 A4. He has a nice once/round rocket, but he can use it vs. adjacent figures, so it's a range 2-4. Shotgun is 3x3 and occasionally getting multiple victims/attack but it does give him a nice option vs. RCS and CS and Def Agil. etc.

So in short I would definitely like to see his defense up at 5. His Taking Down The Mob is a nice niche theme power that is cool, but there will be many games where he isn't going to use it. The Rocket is neat but limited and the Shotgun is neat but also limited. He's not mobile and the his Shotgun is so short ranged that he needs to get close in to use it and often if he tries to stay far away to shoot, opponent's can close in pretty easily (though in an army test the opponent might be distracted by his teammates too). Another concern is with the sidekick power synergy with Vigilantes, it would be nicer if Punisher had a little more staying power in close quarters.

[Griffin]

I like the defense of 5, and honestly, I could even go to 6 if you wanted, since he almost always has armor on. Your call.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Griffin

I like the defense of 5, and honestly, I could even go to 6 if you wanted, since he almost always has armor on. Your call.

Well heck...I'd like 6 too. But do you think the others and ERB would think it's kind of high? People would hate it being as high as Captain America's.

I guess the things that he doesn't have that others in this price range have is mobility via move of 6 and/or grapple that get him into better off/def position. He also doesn't have a ES, CS or RCS or any other special defensive power. He also doesn't have misc. boosting type powers etc.

I'm for sure liking 5 and don't think anyone should have a problem with it. I'd be for 6 too, but think there might be some opposition, though maybe not, people do like Punisher. Either way, I think thematically he needs help in getting in close and blasting the snot out of people because for all his apparent firepower on paper, it's not as devastating as it looks (not from what I've experienced anyway) but it doesn't do him any good if he get's killed without using it.

I'd like to hear what others think about it.

What is the preference for Punisher's defense?
A). 4 (leave as is)
B). 5 (bump shotgun range to 4)
C). 6 (to account for Body Armor and no special defense power or mobility).

Personally, I'd be willing to give C).6 a shot. If he were too powerful then I'd be fine with dropping it to 5. But I think that 4 is way too low considering his need most of the time to get close and personal to the opponent.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by Hahma

C). 6 (to account for Body Armor, no special defense power or mobility, and being the biggest bad@$$ in the Marvel Universe).

Put me down for C) 6. That is two for C.

Even with 6 defense, Batman still has a tad more staying power, or at least on par with each other. I think this will help Punisher cost more around the 200 point range, but I also think he won't look or play like a weenie, and people will draft him more often.

[whitestuff]

Definitely 6. The Punisher is harder to put down than the latest Twilight novel...

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Put me down for C) 6. That is two for C.

Even with 6 defense, Batman still has a tad more staying power, or at least on par with each other. I think this will help Punisher cost more around the 200 point range, but I also think he won't look or play like a weenie, and people will draft him more often.

Agreed. The only reason he did anything in squad tests was when he was able to get height and then it was iffy. Otherwise he got slaughtered by ranged squads. If he tries to stay far away and snipe, he's nothing more than Kaemon Awa.

The other neat thing about Punisher is that he can be played as a villain too, as he's had some run ins with superheroes thinking he's some kind of deranged psycho killer, which he is, but only if you're a bad guy.

Originally Posted by whitestuff

Definitely 6. The Punisher is harder to put down than the latest Twilight novel...

Great line there Whitestuff, my wife is big into those books and movies.

I figured you'd like the more cowbell version of Punisher.

That's 3 for C). 6 defense.

[A3n]

C - leaving options open to reduce after playtesting.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

C, until playtesting says otherwise.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by A3n

C - leaving options open to reduce after playtesting.

Cheers

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

C, until playtesting says otherwise.

Agreed. If 6 is too high, I'm glad to go down to 5.

That makes 5 for C).6 def