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  #169  
Old October 5th, 2020, 01:54 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

Yeah I'm kinda leaning towards what Astro says - she has some connection to the elf wizards but isn't Jordawn herself.
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  #170  
Old October 6th, 2020, 08:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Jorhdawn, on the other hand, is a much less iconic unit and Pyria looks nothing like her.
Planning on pulling out Jorhdawn I and doing a side-by-side, but unless they're totally unrelated I like the idea of Jorhdawn II here. Her bio is incredibly disturbing for a "valiant elf wizard". Changing allegiance as part of progression is new, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. The Valkyrie generals themselves change sides, after all.

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I definitely imagined the change to be explained by a progression in story like Raelin/Drake/Hrognak. I really don't want to start dabbling in alternate universe versions; that way lies madness.
Agreed. Heroscape's story already does enough here, and there's no reason to believe no one ever changes sides in the war. Introducing alternate universes just wouldn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I don't mind the idea of progressing characters, but making this figure Jorhdawn feels forced to me. And I don't think that tying in to somewhat obscure existing character is the right direction for a "fresh and new" master set.
She's already been forced to be an elf, so Jorhdawn II fits with that. I don't know how any character is more "obscure" than others. Each official character is as official as the next. Why make an "obscure" character from the lore, then, like Tyrian? Or Durnipia? This Master Set is "new", yes, but at no time did anyone say it needs to be 100% "fresh" and not relate to the official game. In fact, we're tying it in via bonding (Velkhor) and other synergy (Archmages, maybe), so lore/character tie-ins are just another part of that. IMO some ties lend to its legitimacy as an expansion anyway.


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  #171  
Old October 10th, 2020, 10:25 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting




They look fairly distinct to me. Raelin 2 and Drake 2 both look like their first versions to me, and Hrognak is literally just the mini sitting in a howdah.

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  #172  
Old October 10th, 2020, 02:08 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

They're different, but not different enough that if someone told me they were two versions of the same character I wouldn't believe them. They're both female fire-users wearing boots and silver ornamentation around the waist. Changing from blue robes to red is cliche when turning evil, but nothing wrong with that either.

Every single other Elf Wizard wields a staff, but it's easy enough to explain why Jorhdawn II doesn't (partly because she's an Archmage now). Given her disturbing bio, the other Elf Wizards built an inhibitor spell into her staff to help keep her destructive potential in check. Utgar managed to break the spell, unleashing her terrible power and turning her Evil. However, Ullar recovered the staff and summoned another member of Morsbane's family to wield it for Good, the gem restored to the end of the staff restoring its full potential as well. (This could be one of our strongest heroes, the staff being closest to Ulginesh's in appearance.)

Honestly, the more I write about it, the more I like it.


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  #173  
Old October 11th, 2020, 03:17 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Jorhdawn, on the other hand, is a much less iconic unit and Pyria looks nothing like her.
Planning on pulling out Jorhdawn I and doing a side-by-side, but unless they're totally unrelated I like the idea of Jorhdawn II here. Her bio is incredibly disturbing for a "valiant elf wizard". Changing allegiance as part of progression is new, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. The Valkyrie generals themselves change sides, after all.

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I don't mind the idea of progressing characters, but making this figure Jorhdawn feels forced to me. And I don't think that tying in to somewhat obscure existing character is the right direction for a "fresh and new" master set.
She's already been forced to be an elf, so Jorhdawn II fits with that. I don't know how any character is more "obscure" than others. Each official character is as official as the next. Why make an "obscure" character from the lore, then, like Tyrian? Or Durnipia? This Master Set is "new", yes, but at no time did anyone say it needs to be 100% "fresh" and not relate to the official game. In fact, we're tying it in via bonding (Velkhor) and other synergy (Archmages, maybe), so lore/character tie-ins are just another part of that. IMO some ties lend to its legitimacy as an expansion anyway.
If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.

Each character is indeed as official as the next, but that doesn't mean that they're all equally recognizable. Raelin is one of the most iconic and immediately recognizable characters in HeroScape for a variety of reasons, Sgt. Drake Alexander is in a similar boat, and Hrognak is a special case for literally being the same exact mini and having a new mount to pair him with. There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake. This isn't to disparage Jorhdawn or other "obscure" units--it's only natural that some characters are more obscure to the average player than others, and it's of course different for everyone. Jorhdawn was one of my favorite units growing up, for example, but even taking that into account, I'd never think that Pyria is the same character unless outright told so, and even then, it just makes me scratch my head and ask "Huh?"

I don't think that this is equitable to making Tyrian or Durnipia, either. Those are random references in other bios that have some interesting details or potential, and then a design came along out of it that essentially turns those references into a cool little cameo. This is essentially rewriting an existing character and trying to force a connection when there isn't one. It doesn't feel natural or like a cameo anymore.

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They look fairly distinct to me. Raelin 2 and Drake 2 both look like their first versions to me, and Hrognak is literally just the mini sitting in a howdah.
Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version. Even in VC, when some 2.0 characters were considered, it was using the same Pathfinder characters that had new poses and weapons. This is simply too big of a jump for it to feel natural, and forcing her to be a 2.0 character simply for the sake of having a 2.0 character feels quite out of place.

I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
They're different, but not different enough that if someone told me they were two versions of the same character I wouldn't believe them. They're both female fire-users wearing boots and silver ornamentation around the waist. Changing from blue robes to red is cliche when turning evil, but nothing wrong with that either.

Every single other Elf Wizard wields a staff, but it's easy enough to explain why Jorhdawn II doesn't (partly because she's an Archmage now). Given her disturbing bio, the other Elf Wizards built an inhibitor spell into her staff to help keep her destructive potential in check. Utgar managed to break the spell, unleashing her terrible power and turning her Evil. However, Ullar recovered the staff and summoned another member of Morsbane's family to wield it for Good, the gem restored to the end of the staff restoring its full potential as well. (This could be one of our strongest heroes, the staff being closest to Ulginesh's in appearance.)

Honestly, the more I write about it, the more I like it.
This feels incredibly forced to me. I think that it makes for a stronger story if Pyria is simply an Elven Archmage who went rogue (perhaps she was even Jorhdawn's mother, if we want to tie in a connection to the fire wizards somehow). Sure, we can write a complex justification to say that Jorhdawn always had a latent evil inside of her, but existing players will still be confused and new players won't care. If Pyria had similar hair or some kind of identifiable connection to Jorhdawn (heck, even if the mechanical design felt a little like Jorhdawn, such as how Raelin 2.0 still has a defense aura, Drake 2.0 still has Thorian Speed and a grappling hook, and Hrognak 2.0 still has Orc Movement Aura), then sure, let's do something crazy with her story. As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow is actually Chardris after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already.
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  #174  
Old October 11th, 2020, 08:23 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.
That's actually the opposite of my point. No one felt making Pyria an Elf was forcing anything. Making her Jorhdawn II isn't, either.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake.
Comparing Retiarius to Drake couldn't be less relevant.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'd never think that Pyria is the same character unless outright told so, and even then, it just makes me scratch my head and ask "Huh?"
We have to agree to disagree here. If I was told these were the same character, I'd wonder why, look at the bios, and think "Neat!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
This is essentially rewriting an existing character and trying to force a connection when there isn't one. It doesn't feel natural or like a cameo anymore.
Nothing even close to rewriting is being done here. There is only one paragraph, ten sentences, of lore on the character. That lore even specifically says she carries a curse, which is the basis for the evolution bio. Raelin and Drake become "more Raelin-y" and "more Drake-y", at least here there's character development.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version.
If "hasn't been done before" was a valid reason, we wouldn't have half of VC. No character has changed sides, either, so it's unreasonable to think they'd look exactly the same if they did. IMO, that's a cool new thing to have happen in the game.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.
Her stats (save Range, which matches Rain of Flame) are identical. She has a single power, which is also a fire-based, multi-targeting Special Attack, same as the first... if she were initially designed as Jorhdawn II, she'd look almost exactly the same anyway.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
This feels incredibly forced to me. I think that it makes for a stronger story if Pyria is simply an Elven Archmage who went rogue (perhaps she was even Jorhdawn's mother, if we want to tie in a connection to the fire wizards somehow). Sure, we can write a complex justification to say that Jorhdawn always had a latent evil inside of her, but existing players will still be confused and new players won't care. If Pyria had similar hair or some kind of identifiable connection to Jorhdawn (heck, even if the mechanical design felt a little like Jorhdawn, such as how Raelin 2.0 still has a defense aura, Drake 2.0 still has Thorian Speed and a grappling hook, and Hrognak 2.0 still has Orc Movement Aura), then sure, let's do something crazy with her story.
Jorhdawn's mother is never even mentioned, and again Jorhdawn's bio literally says she's cursed. See above for why Pyria's card, as already designed, is effectively the same as a mechanically similar Raelin/Drake/Hrognak 2.0 would be.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow is actually Chardris after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already.
Irrelevant again. Erevan is a completely different species and from a different planet.


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  #175  
Old October 11th, 2020, 09:40 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

I don't really want to drag this out into a lengthy argument, NB, especially since this isn't our Pod. I'll just take the chance to clear up a few places where it seems that I wasn't clear and then bow out of the discussion. Hopefully if Pod 1 decides that Pyria can pass as Jorhdawn, then there's a really good bio explaining it.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
If it feels "forced" that Pyria is an Elf Archmage, then the answer isn't to make her feel even more forced.
That's actually the opposite of my point. No one felt making Pyria an Elf was forcing anything. Making her Jorhdawn II isn't, either.
My understanding was that you felt like Pyria being an Elf Archmage was forced before Captain Stupendous floated the idea of her being Jorhdawn. I'm not aware of anyone else feeling like the Elf angle was forced off the top of my head; this was simply in response to my reading of your post that she was "forced" to be one already. My apologies if you didn't actually feel that way and I had an erroneous impression.

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There's a clear level of difference in terms of recognizability when comparing someone like Retiarius to Sgt. Drake.
Comparing Retiarius to Drake couldn't be less relevant.
I'd argue that it's an apt parallel to Jorhdawn and Raelin, or pretty much Jorhdawn and any other "progression" character. It's an example that some characters are more obscure than others, even if all of them are equally official.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Yep. They look almost completely different. All of the existing "progression" characters are very clearly identifiable as the previous version.
If "hasn't been done before" was a valid reason, we wouldn't have half of VC. No character has changed sides, either, so it's unreasonable to think they'd look exactly the same if they did. IMO, that's a cool new thing to have happen in the game.
I don't think that anyone is arguing against this because it hasn't been done before. They are arguing against it because it feels forced in a way that no other 2.0 character has. It's totally fair if you disagree, but I think that it's important to recognize the sticking point for why some people feel like it's a problem.

Quote:
Quote:
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I think that the problem is particularly pronounced because Pyria wasn't designed as Evil Jorhdawn. Her card bears very little resemblance to Jorhdawn, whereas Raelin, Sgt. Drake, and Hrognak all feel like they're the same character with some new toys: a completely different fire-themed Special Attack isn't enough to make me think that this has to be Jorhdawn later.
Her stats (save Range, which matches Rain of Flame) are identical. She has a single power, which is also a fire-based, multi-targeting Special Attack, same as the first... if she were initially designed as Jorhdawn II, she'd look almost exactly the same anyway.
The similarities pretty much end at "flame-themed SA that can hit multiple figures." Jorhdawn relies on being close to certain units to boost her attack, plays mostly like a ranged figure, and has a drastically different style of multi-attack than Pyria does. Pyria absolutely feels like a unique character, and I think that if she were planned to be Jorhdawn rather than someone new, subtle changes in the design would have naturally occurred. Maybe the explosion SA wouldn't have been dropped, maybe she'd be less reliant on getting into melee range still, maybe she'd have some way to boost her SA like Chardris and Jorhdawn's defining traits, et cetera. It can certainly be argued that elements of this design can match Jorhdawn, but I think that it feels clear that it wasn't designed to match Jorhdawn (which it definitely shouldn't have been anyway, given the project's intention).

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Quote:
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As it stands right now, though, it feels like saying that that Erevan Sunshadow is actually Chardris after he dealt with his anger in his bio and found inner peace. It just feels out of place and doesn't bring much to the table that a new character doesn't already.
Irrelevant again. Erevan is a completely different species and from a different planet.
Yeah, I agree. Erevan feels absolutely nothing like Chardris. I'm glad that his designers agreed.
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Old October 11th, 2020, 10:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I don't really want to drag this out into a lengthy argument, NB, especially since this isn't our Pod. I'll just take the chance to clear up a few places where it seems that I wasn't clear and then bow out of the discussion. Hopefully if Pod 1 decides that Pyria can pass as Jorhdawn, then there's a really good bio explaining it.
There was other support for Jorhdawn II, so hopefully others will chime in, since as you say this isn't our Pod (which is why I generally try to stay out, unless I've done a playtest or things just need a push). Heroscape lore isn't particularly deep, so I'm curious what a "really good bio" looks like, beyond what I already wrote (which is already longer than Jorhdawn's, though not as long as some VC).

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
My understanding was that you felt like Pyria being an Elf Archmage was forced before Captain Stupendous floated the idea of her being Jorhdawn. I'm not aware of anyone else feeling like the Elf angle was forced off the top of my head; this was simply in response to my reading of your post that she was "forced" to be one already. My apologies if you didn't actually feel that way and I had an erroneous impression.
I did question it at first, since her being an Elf doesn't do anything different than anything else (likely Human). On the other hand, there's also not a particular reason that she can't be an Elf. I see her being Jorhdawn, or not, the same way, hence if we're going to say one is forced, then so is the other. Since no one actually feels Elf is forced, then Jorhdawn shouldn't either.

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'd argue that it's an apt parallel to Jorhdawn and Raelin, or pretty much Jorhdawn and any other "progression" character. It's an example that some characters are more obscure than others, even if all of them are equally official.
I misread that bit. Raelin and Drake are in the first Master Set, so they are more likely in more collections than a given expansion figure. Hrognak certainly doesn't enjoy that fame, though, and more importantly I hardly consider familiarity a prerequisite to a character being eligible for progression.

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The similarities pretty much end at "flame-themed SA that can hit multiple figures." Jorhdawn relies on being close to certain units to boost her attack, plays mostly like a ranged figure, and has a drastically different style of multi-attack than Pyria does. Pyria absolutely feels like a unique character, and I think that if she were planned to be Jorhdawn rather than someone new, subtle changes in the design would have naturally occurred. Maybe the explosion SA wouldn't have been dropped, maybe she'd be less reliant on getting into melee range still, maybe she'd have some way to boost her SA like Chardris and Jorhdawn's defining traits, et cetera. It can certainly be argued that elements of this design can match Jorhdawn, but I think that it feels clear that it wasn't designed to match Jorhdawn (which it definitely shouldn't have been anyway, given the project's intention).
6 Life, 5 Move, 3 Attack, 2 Defense. Those are all similarities beyond a multi-fire-SA. The different style of attack (namely not getting boosts from other Elf Wizards) is precisely in line with Jorhdawn leaving the Nine. There's also nothing about this project that has at any time said we shouldn't do a progression character. Someone jumping in at this point might not have Jorhdawn, but neither would someone who started with SotM have Raelin 1.0 or Drake 1.0.


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  #177  
Old October 12th, 2020, 07:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

HAving read along, I'm definitely open to her being Jor 2. It's not not like we can't go with that name for now and then if SoV doesn't take it we make an alternate card.
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Old October 13th, 2020, 09:39 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.
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Old October 13th, 2020, 11:40 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.
Similar - I am against but not as strongly. Chandra Nalaar does not look like an elf (no pointy ears), a wizard (no staff). Howevere the long hair and "battle skirt" make them somewhat similar, and Jorhdawn probably looks closer to Chandra Nalaar than any other Heroscape unit. I guess I could see a good backstory showing the change, but would prefer our own "lore"
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Old October 13th, 2020, 05:55 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] PYRIA (Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
As one of the Pod 1 people, I'm strong against Jor II.
Similar - I am against but not as strongly. Chandra Nalaar does not look like an elf (no pointy ears), a wizard (no staff). Howevere the long hair and "battle skirt" make them somewhat similar, and Jorhdawn probably looks closer to Chandra Nalaar than any other Heroscape unit. I guess I could see a good backstory showing the change, but would prefer our own "lore"
To be clear, Chandra is an Elf either way right now (pointy ears or not), and the lack of staff that wizards have isn't as important since she's also an Archmage either way (Jace doesn't have one, either). Anyway, let the Pod decide her fate, I'll be around if we need to take a vote on it.


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