HeroScape is coming back!

[Sherman Davies]

I'm with nyys and Mr. Helm in that I think Flying text is a useful barrier to complexity creep. Yes, design discipline and restraint are important, but humans can always use some assistance in doing the right thing. It's why we made up the whole "laws" thing.

Plus, as evidenced by this...

Plus I want to see more powers anyways.

...some players prefer to remove Flying text specifically to enable complexity creep.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

I'm with nyys and Mr. Helm in that I think Flying text is a useful barrier to complexity creep. Yes, design discipline and restraint are important, but humans can always use some assistance in doing the right thing. It's why we made up the whole "laws" thing.

Plus, as evidenced by this...

...some players prefer to remove Flying text specifically to enable complexity creep.

I think it’s a very thin argument to use flying as a form of barrier. No ability should be used in such a way.

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by wriggz

I fully recognize that the world of board games and the market for Heroscape has matured. Complexity is almost a badge of honor nowadays, but give me Krav and Syvarris who do a great job representing matrix agents and legolas respectively.

You are cherry picking less complex cards as I did with the Cursed Earth.
The reality is that the complexity comes down to the cards you choose to play and not the system itself in this case.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Tornado

You are cherry picking less complex cards as I did with the Cursed Earth.
The reality is that the complexity comes down to the cards you choose to play and not the system itself in this case.

I personally feel the Master of Tides has too many powers. This is what I mean by design discipline. I would pick one of those abilities and pitch it. At some point, the clutter works against you and the card is not easily decoded.

[Tornado]

Cursed Earth actually has one more power than I wanted.

[foofoofun]

Whoa, it's exciting to see all the hype occur in the short amount of time I was busy.

On the whole complexity creep thing, I want to voice my concern as well. I think one of heroscape's strengths as a game is that game pieces are so easy to understand. As someone who's primary hobby is card games let me tell you that it is often a luxury.

Complexity is something that can catch people off guard. I think game designers are particularly susceptible to it because when you're very familiar with games it can be hard to notice when something has become unapproachable. It's also not something that becomes a major issue until it's been happening for a while.

Honestly I think a good number of the new units have too many abilities. I didn't really notice it until I had a second look and asked myself "what am I supposed to use this unit for?" and "what would a new player think looking at this?" I looked past a lot of the abilities because my familiarity made them not stand out.

I'm going to be real the current way the units are is a monumental increase in complexity from the original heroscape. They do look fun to play, but I would not feel comfortable handing these to new players like I do with the old stuff.

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

How many C3V units have you played? It's a bold claim you're making here based on "examining."

I admit, only a few. (Marro Gnids, those snow Microcorp dude guys in white, and the future-istic Marro guys whose names escapes me at the moment.) I actually tried searching for C3V units to buy a couple years back for fun, but a large amount are very expensive/difficult to find, and I flat out hate proxies, so I gave up. Plus like I said, a large number just feel too under priced, albeit not by a ton of points per unit IMO. I think It's not like the project is a total waste, some units seem super fun (like the Marro Gnids, who are very balanced I'd argue, and one of the few units i've used numerous times in games.)

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I personally feel the Master of Tides has too many powers. This is what I mean by design discipline. I would pick one of those abilities and pitch it. At some point, the clutter works against you and the card is not easily decoded.

While I'm SUPER excited to use Ewashia (with the Microcorps baby! Say hi to water on height!!) I can see where some folks are coming from, and I would have been cool with ditching the Beast binding thing. Her other powers are great, although she is a unit I feel seems a tad bit under priced for what she can do. Feels more like a 125-130 pt unit tbh

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Owlman

I admit, only a few. (Marro Gnids, those snow Microcorp dude guys in white, and the future-istic Marro guys whose names escapes me at the moment.) I actually tried searching for C3V units to buy a couple years back for fun, but a large amount are very expensive/difficult to find, and I flat out hate proxies, so I gave up. Plus like I said, a large number just feel too under priced, albeit not by a ton of points per unit IMO. I think It's not like the project is a total waste, some units seem super fun (like the Marro Gnids, who are very balanced I'd argue, and one of the few units i've used numerous times in games.)

So you've played a total of three units and one of them you'd argue is very balanced, but you'd also argue that you've examined all of the library and they're all 15-20 points undercosted? Heh.

[Shiftrex]

I think this version of Ewashia is a bit choked full, I prefer how we did it at NGC but this one works just as well.

As far as complexity... I'm honestly glad to see more of it. I get really bored, especially if there is more than 2 players in a heroscape game because I feel like there is nothing to do. Especially if I fall behind. There are just so few options and such little player agency while I am sitting at the table to play a game of classic.

A little more complexity is something I would have wanted but I guess that's why I'm playing c3g now and classic games have dropped from 20ish a month to 1 or 2. Seems that the 'right' way for classic to be is barebones, highly restrictive, and rolling as few dice as possible lol. That's definitely an experience but not a very exciting one for me.

Edit: Also I'm going to add that comparing putting wound markers on a base, or next to a unit to a dexterity game is a hoot lol. Gotta play some competitive street fighter II turbo edition and then we can talk about what dexterity looks like. I understand the preference but it is by no means an act of dexterity. I've put wounds next to uncommon figures myself before when I didn't have the 'official stickers' that are supposed to be used. This is just an echo chambery space, those of us that have different wants or preferences generally don't talk because we very much feel like we just shouldn't be playing the game anymore.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

More complexity =/= more power. Now if you're worried about complexity creep, that's something else.

Very true. I've seen some one power cards that were insanely hard to process...and I've seen four powered cards that were pretty simple designs.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Tornado

You are cherry picking less complex cards as I did with the Cursed Earth.
The reality is that the complexity comes down to the cards you choose to play and not the system itself in this case.

I cheated a little, but those early cards were all dead simple if I recall correctly.

One of the reasons my AotP cards collect dust is the spell cards add complexity but not tactical interest.