Stinger Denial Revamped!!!

[Elf_Archer]

Stinger denial, an annoying but insightful tactic used in competetive Herosape. It is a unique element of the game, as it is not built into the rules, but an accidental trait of the Marro Stingers.

Stinger denial is the use of the Marro Stingers' guns to prevent enemies from accessing certain hexes because of the stingers' protruding nature. (I'm talking about their guns.) The stingers are long enough to stop other figures from fitting on nearby hexes, making the move illegal.

Stinger denial was used extensively against the door before the FAQ update.

I was thinking about something. What if a unit was to come out with stinger denial like traits? A spearman, for example, has a spear that could realistically extend over one, maybe two hexes. What if a spearman figure's spear could span two hexes? It would block other melee figures from attacking it.

As far as I know, things like Grimnak's tail denial and Mimring's wing denial, both offshoots of stinger denial, weren't taken into account when determining the cost of the figures. What if a figure meant solely for the denial purpose were created? Imagine the possibilities.

We could have true spear walls. A group of KoW's simply couldn't legally move adjacent to and thus attack a squad of spearmen because of those long spears.

Spear mazing tactics could occur. We could create barriers by hiding pspearmen out of sight of ranged units, but having the spears in sight as a barrier from moving in. Mazes to reach ranged units and other fragile units could come into play commonly.

Now, what if the spearmen figures had different positions with their spears. One figure had the spear pointed level at waistline. One figure was crouching with the spear at a 30 degree angle (from the ground), coming from low hands. Another figure could have his spear above his head pointing downwards. Now, small figures such as the Fyorblags and the Nagubs could attack the spearman with the level spear and the spearman with the spear pointing down, but not the one crouching with a spear pointing upwards. Some large figures could go adjacent to different figures and not others.

The spearmen would have a range of 2, with possibly a lunge attack of 3, to be able to compensate for their denial abilities.

Now, this might seem overpowered. A schiltrom might be invincible to a melee heavy army. Now, we could offset this by giving the spearmen a relatively high cost, low defense, and/or low attack.

Another possibility: Your opponent could reposition your spearman, but would roll a die of damage for a figure withing 2 spaces of the spearman. This would represent the figure going over and knocking the spear to the side. The figure would also be placed adjacent to the spearman if the damage roll was unsuccesful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions about units with denial based traits are appreciated.

[wriggz]

Spearmen would be okay, but I would make moving into the space an engagement strike (like the Nakita).
0-9 no hits
10-14 1 wound
15-19 2 wound
20 4 wound.*

Modify as necessary.

I doubt this would have the drastic effect on game mechanics outlined here. But really you can send a figure right up into (insert huge figure here) face, or jump in lava, so why would a spear stop you?

[Elf_Archer]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Spearmen would be okay, but I would make moving into the space an engagement strike (like the Nakita).
0-9 no hits
10-14 1 wound
15-19 2 wound
20 4 wound.*

Modify as necessary.

I doubt this would have the drastic effect on game mechanics outlined here. But really you can send a figure right up into (insert huge figure here) face, or jump in lava, so why would a spear stop you?

No, you misunderstood. I'm talking about a certain mechanic.

Take Grimnak, for instance. Can you legally move a figure behind him?

Probably not, because when moving a figure, the figure can not touch anythign in its end position, including Grimnak's tail.

I'm trying to describe a figure that uses a spear like Grimnak's tail, blocking figures from moving to adjacent spots.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by Elf_Archer

Stinger denial, an annoying but insightful tactic used in competetive Herosape. It is a unique element of the game, as it is not built into the rules, but an accidental trait of the Marro Stingers.

I think the community is still pretty split on this one. Called insightful by some, cheap by others.

[RobertDD]

Stinger denial is pretty lame, and not tollerated in the tournament scene over here, I don't think. It is an accidental trait of the stinger sculpts that even makes this possible. If your stinger denies access to a space for your opponent, the correct thing to do is adjust it so it does not.

[SuperflyTNT]

The real ruling IMO is the video of the designers playing where they politely move each other's figures over to deny the denial.

If the designers play nice, so should you.

(Edit: FAQ trumps this. It's illegal to touch your figures when it's not your turn)

[Elf_Archer]

Well, my point is to make a unit that can stinger denial extremely well, but its stinger denial like abilities will be taken account with the cost and other balance factors.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Elf_Archer

Well, my point is to make a unit that can stinger denial extremely well, but its stinger denial like abilities will be taken account with the cost and other balance factors.

That may work, but that invites other things sculpt related. You'll eventually see figures that have no hit zones because they are made of paper, or people cutting off the body of a figure so only the feet are there (to deny shooting).

[Kobu]

Originally Posted by RobertDD

Stinger denial is pretty lame, and not tollerated in the tournament scene over here, I don't think. It is an accidental trait of the stinger sculpts that even makes this possible. If your stinger denies access to a space for your opponent, the correct thing to do is adjust it so it does not.

I completely agree. Thankfully, no one has tried to pull this in a tournament here.

Look at other minis games where figures need to be base to base. They have rules that say both players need to rotate figures for the best fit.

Heroscape is a bit unique because the shape of the sculpt actually matters, but it was never intended for this purpose and is really against the spirit of the game.

[1Mmirg]

Originally Posted by Elf_Archer

Well, my point is to make a unit that can stinger denial extremely well, but its stinger denial like abilities will be taken account with the cost and other balance factors.

I think Stinger denial is a pretty weak. I do get your idea that creating a unit that purposefully has this as a "power" (not really, but built into the design and idea of the sculpt and figure) could work. Spearmen doesn't do it for me--there are too many things in the game that should have this power then. But a larger unit with some kind of giant pike or even portable barricade or something, well, yeah, I could see that being an interesting addition to the game. (Again, as long as it is priced accordingly.)

I hope that Stinger denial fades entirely from play, but I wouldn't be against a thoughtfully designed unit with a unique sculpt intended to deny access to a certain space.

[skyknight]

I would be against it, far too many choke points would be able to be utilized...could make for a lot of stalemates.

[Pumpkin_King]