The Book of Punisher

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

Two different universes. Just because they probably won't make more Daimyos doesn't mean there couldn't be any more (thematically). Isn't Kingpin essentially a Crime Lord, though? He's just better at it than most, that's all.

He is, most literally, a Kingpin of Crime. He's the Crime Lord over Crime Lords. But ... this is really a debate for a future Kingpin thread.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

None taken! I was only throwing out another idea. I just think the Sniper effect is way cooler than a shotgun blast, but that is probably the gun-toting, ROTC-trained, Footpounder in me. "One shot, one kill, from the top of the hill, Walking in a Sniper Wonderland." (Sung to the tune of Walking in a Winter Wonderland)

I guess I just see Punisher more as a guy who likes to get his hands dirty. Yeah, I know, he's been a sniper sometimes, but that's not the most iconic Punisher for me. If you want a Sniper, someone like Deadshot is a much more appropriate fit, IMO.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

What about somewhere in between ...

TAKING DOWN THE MOB
When Punisher attacks a Criminal, Crime Lord, or Mastermind with his normal attack, he may attack a Criminal, Crime Lord, or Mastermind with his normal attack one additional time, up to a maximum of 4 attacks. When Taking Down The Mob, Punisher rolls 1 less attack die for each subsequent attack in the same turn. He cannot attack the same figure more than once when Taking Down The Mob.

That way you only have to count targets and make sure they're of the correct class.

Changed to this. Thanks Bats

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

Because the attacker has to roll dice first, so you can see how many skulls they rolled, before you can know how many defense dice to roll. You can't do that if you both roll simultaneously.

Well in over 4 years of playing with many people, I've never played where both attacker and defender roll simultaneously, so I wouldn't have figured it to be a problem

[IAmBatman]

I always do attack rolls first and then defense rolls as well ... is that really the rule??

[GreyOwl]

I don't think it's a problem, I was just pointing out that it won't work the way we have been doing. It's not a big deal to roll one after the other if we need to. And I have no idea what the official rule is on that, or if there even is one.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I guess I just see Punisher more as a guy who likes to get his hands dirty. Yeah, I know, he's been a sniper sometimes, but that's not the most iconic Punisher for me. If you want a Sniper, someone like Deadshot is a much more appropriate fit, IMO.

Well, I see Punisher as a one-man army. Sniper, General, Interrogator, Medic, Tech, Grunt, Explosives Expert, Heavy Weapons Expert, Chopper Pilot, etc. I just think Sniper Rifle is a cooler thing than a Shotgun Blast. But to repeat. IT IS THE BEST PUNISHER I'VE EVER SEEN ON THIS SITE!!!

[IAmBatman]

Ah, gotcha. GreyOwl's crew plays weird. I follow.

[IAmBatman]

Meh ... sniper shots are so impersonal. I love the multiple, in your face shotgun blasts. I'm actually hoping we at least playtest it as a triple attack ...

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

I don't think it's a problem, I was just pointing out that it won't work the way we have been doing. It's not a big deal to roll one after the other if we need to. And I have no idea what the official rule is on that, or if there even is one.

I have the Marvel rulebook right here and on page 12 on the right half of the page in #2 under To carry out the attack, follow these steps: about the middle of the paragraph it says, "Then roll that number of attack dice. After you roll, the Defender rolls the number of defense dice on his Defender's Army Card, adding any extra dice for height advantage......."

That's not to say that you can't do it the way you do it GO, but it means that the Armor Piercing Rocket Special Attack mechanics won't break any rules or steps as written in the rulebook, so people couldn't have a legitimate complaint about having to roll dice separately. It might not be their preference, but it's not against the rules or intentions of the game designers.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Well, I see Punisher as a one-man army. Sniper, General, Interrogator, Medic, Tech, Grunt, Explosives Expert, Heavy Weapons Expert, Chopper Pilot, etc. I just think Sniper Rifle is a cooler thing than a Shotgun Blast. But to repeat. IT IS THE BEST PUNISHER I'VE EVER SEEN ON THIS SITE!!!

Well I'm glad you like the way our Punisher is looking Spidey. That said, I'd rather see your Sniper Rifle special attack on someone that is more iconically a sniper. I just got done reading a boatload of Punisher comics from different lines and sniping wasn't his focus. He infiltrates, sometimes getting captured on purpose and then kicks ass from the inside out. In one comic, he crashed a party at a mansion that was in honor of some 90 year old mob boss or something, a guy that was on oxygen and frail. He walks right up to the dude, pulls out a pistol and shoots him dead. Then while all the guests and wiseguys get over the shock, he waltzes outside and hops over a low fence where he had his weapons stashed. The wiseguys and bodyguards run out in their suites with their pistols and up pops Punisher with a machine gun, shooting the crap out of them. Then, as some of them try to out flank him in the woods, he sets up a Claymore mine to take them out when the close in.

Another one had him getting captured on purpose to find out some info. He was beaten somewhat, but he cut through the ropes that bound him to the chair, with diamond chips/dust or something that he had glued to his finger tips. Then he got up and took care of business.

He is mean, dirty and kills the bad guys and anyone helping the bad guys. If he had a Sniper Rifle special attack in place of the shotgun and wasn't going against Criminals etc. I'd have no reason to use him much unless he could try to target a squad figure or a hero with only 1 or 2 lives left. But that's not to say that Sniper Rifle wouldn't be an awesome power on some other unit, I just personally think that Frank needs to be dangerous in close quarters too and besides, he would still have a normal ranged attack of 4 (5 with height) with a range of 7, so that's not such a bad attack from range.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Meh ... sniper shots are so impersonal. I love the multiple, in your face shotgun blasts. I'm actually hoping we at least playtest it as a triple attack ...

I would suggest that. It sounds all crazy powerful, but if he is only facing one enemy, it's basically only 3 special attacks of 3 from a range of 3, so he's going to be in close quarters to use it anyway. As with Daredevils Man Without Fear, it's not going to come up very often that either one is going to be surrounded by opponent's that close in to take full advantage of the powers. If he gets to someone's starting zone full of bunched together units, they deserve to get blasted. This attack also affects friendly figures, so there may be many occasions where he won't want to attack for fear of hitting his own teammate, or if he doesn't care about them, then he could be taking out his own teammates to attain his goal of killing the bad guy.

[IAmBatman]

I think if we made the change where Punisher's Auto Shotgun Special Attack could affect him (and why not? he's not Superman or anything), then the close quarters aspect of it would make the triple attack effect much less powerful and it would have no problem staying on the card.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think if we made the change where Punisher's Auto Shotgun Special Attack could affect him (and why not? he's not Superman or anything), then the close quarters aspect of it would make the triple attack effect much less powerful and it would have no problem staying on the card.

It was taken directly from Johnny Shotgun Sullivan's card. Which is the same as with James Murphy. Being that it's not an explosive that goes in all directions, thus blowing back on him, it's a shotgun blast that goes away from him.

I'm open to making it affect him I guess, but then it limits it's use to only targeted figures that are 2 or 3 spaces away. I guess we can try it that way. Heck we can add that he can't target the same figure more than once too to really make it a limited use option.

Edit: Since the overall concern from everyone is that Punisher was too overpowered, I made some changes to the first post to several different aspects of him. This should, I hope, help relieve some concerns that people have been expressing.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Hahma

I have the Marvel rulebook right here and on page 12 on the right half of the page in #2 under To carry out the attack, follow these steps: about the middle of the paragraph it says, "Then roll that number of attack dice. After you roll, the Defender rolls the number of defense dice on his Defender's Army Card, adding any extra dice for height advantage......."

That's not to say that you can't do it the way you do it GO, but it means that the Armor Piercing Rocket Special Attack mechanics won't break any rules or steps as written in the rulebook, so people couldn't have a legitimate complaint about having to roll dice separately. It might not be their preference, but it's not against the rules or intentions of the game designers.

Like I said, it's not a big deal to me and I didn't think it was going to break anything. We just roll simultaneously because it's a little more exciting, and in real fights things are happening virtually at the same time - you don't see someone swing a sword at you, know for sure they're going to land a hit and then say "hmmm...let me see if I can block it!".

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think if we made the change where Punisher's Auto Shotgun Special Attack could affect him (and why not? he's not Superman or anything), then the close quarters aspect of it would make the triple attack effect much less powerful and it would have no problem staying on the card.

I don't see the thematic reasoning behind this. Since when does someone shoot a shotgun and then get affected by the blast?

[A3n]

I personally wouldn't wan't the shotgun to affect him, but I would prefer it if all affected units require LOS. I know the official precedence you sighted has it as not being required but it just doesn't make sense to me & I don't think we should perpetuate it.

TAKING DOWN THE MOB
When Punisher attacks a Criminal, Crime Lord, or Mastermind with his normal attack, he may attack a Criminal, Crime Lord, or Mastermind with his normal attack one additional time, up to a maximum of 3 attacks. When Taking Down The Mob, Punisher rolls 1 less attack die for each subsequent attack in the same turn. He cannot attack the same figure more than once when Taking Down The Mob.

Can't we just say "...two additional times."? But the rest is still out of whack. By saying "...he may attack a..." multiple times & then saying "...He cannot attack the same figure more than once...". I would say it's contradictory.

Ok what about something like:

If Punisher attacks a Criminal, Crime Lord, or Mastermind with his normal attack, he may attack two additional times with his normal attack if the target each attack is a Criminal, Crime Lord or Mastermind. Roll 1 less attack die for each subsequent attack. Punisher cannot attack the same figure more than once.

Cheers