Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

[Cleon]

I'd love to hear any or all thoughts from top/great players and spark up some discussion:

@spider_poison @MattserTruckRally @dok @Matthias Maccabeus @lonewolf @ManTrainChooChoo @scaper dude @Rÿchean @Hendal @nicktheant @I.S.B.3 @infectedsloth @MajorQ23 @weesel99 @Jexik @NecroBlade @Deroche @fomox @Clarissimus @ollie @Kinseth @Bengi @The Orange Mailman @Mr Migraine @gamjuven @Dignan @CornPuff @southwest ninja @killercactus @RollItOnTop @capsocrates @Sir Heroscape @Tiny Timmy @KaBoomboomBoom

(Orc, Dysole and vegie already commented of course) (DadScaper too, have I ever played you? I believe I have but can't remember what the match was)

(There's also great old players like Kahrma, Jormi Boced, NWOjedi, Revdyer, etc. but I haven't seen them play in a long time and not sure when the last time they competed at GenCon was. Not sure if they still play or think about the game competitively but you all are welcome time chime in)

Sorry if I missed other notable players I'm sure I have, was just listing those I know off the top of my head. There are definitely some I forgot. Also, of course, if I haven't ever played you before and you don't go to GenCon or weren't a part of the New England seen I used to attend (i.e. - if you're from another region and don't attend GenCon but are a strong player) and are good players that still play/discuss, I apologize for not listing ya. Obviously feel free to comment and debate no matter who you are (well, as long as you know the game at least somewhat haha).

Also know that Vegie's Dad and Orc's Dad are solid too, if they want to chime in (do they have usernames?)

Also, I've never played in the online Heroscape scene, but I've heard there are some very strong players whom I've never met or seen play in person, but your opinions are valued to me and I'd like to mention some

@kevindola @TheSparkleInYourWater @Foudzing (I know there are probably others too, those are just the three I know are great players who crush on online)

^Hopefully I'll play you guys one day

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Once I have the time? Absolutely. Unfortunately just have time for some quick jabs .

You're insane for ranking all the units, but major props on the effort! Hell of an undertaking.

For starters, I'd reevaluate where you have Kozuke, Tandros, WoA, and Hounds (too low.) Glad/Blast is too high (above Heavies??), and Eltahale, Kaemon, and MBS should all move up in their respective tiers. Mezzos should be mid-top of tier 8, right below Romans probably. Zetacron seems high.

And the Kyrie squads, Braxas, and Laglor of course, not that we haven't had this conversation before or anything.

Yeah I think you know my thoughts/stance on Minions/Sentinels, Braxas, and Laglor haha. . I will consider dropping Laglor to 8 though, just because he's probably the only 9 that lacks the results, or that you don't see often at all. I still think he's really good though.

As far as the other ones you mentioned, I'll make some quick comments:

Trons: Yeah I understand Trons don't really like the formats nowadays.....but I still think they are great figures. They probably drop down to low-9/high-8 when you limit them to 16-18 figures. But when it's 20+, they're very strong. I basically have them that high because although I have not personally had as much success with them as that ranked position, I know many top players have. Spider, lonewolf, Mattser, dok. But yes, nowadays the usual formats aren't as accomodating for them. Maybe I should move them to a mid-Tier-9? Or low-Tier-9? Does that sound more accurate?

WoA: I'm going to let the list sit for like a week and then update it with some tweaks. They will move up to mid-Tier-6 I think. I was going to put them as 6 anyways but was reluctant and put them as a safe high-5.

Kozuke: Really? I always think of them as the worst of the 3 samurai squads...but all 3 are pretty equal in power I had thought. They are interesting and definitely have a different niche than the other two. I just worry if you are going to kill your 100pt. worth with them, and that they almost always die before doing so. They are interesting, pretty deadly, I could be wrong.

Tandros: I remember when this figure first came out I thought he was really good, he reminded me of Kaemon Awa. But he never performed very well in my games with him. 7 life 4 defense is really good though. Not sure, I like him at 5, I might've put him too low in that Tier I could see him at a higher position in 5. But I haven't played too many competitive games with this figure.

Hounds: Already mentioned my thoughts on them in an above post.

MBS: I had Me-Burq-Sa higher in the 9-Tier originally, but moved him down in the final list. He's a great figure, pretty much always kills more than 50pt., sometimes much more. Gives the Romans/Deathchasers an incredibly useful tool for competing. Also a fine figure outside those army types. I guess I moved him down because I felt he didn't do as much damage as those that are higher. I could see moving him up.

Kaemon Awa: The Hydra has really hurt Kaemon's frequency in competitive play, being that they're the same points and fill pretty similar roles. Originally I had him as a high 8, but I guess I had some bias in that just because he's not as common in tournaments as he once was, but that doesn't mean he's any worse. I don't see myself dropping him from 9, but I am a bit reluctant moving him that much higher.

Eltahale: Very well could be. She's one of the units I mentioned that I need some help ranking, as I haven't had enough tournament experience/knowledge with her but I know she's good.

Mezzodemons: Same thing as Eltahale. I don't see them as being as good as Romans, that seems like a stretch to me. If I do move them up to 8 they'd likely be low. But again, I need some help with these dudes so ultimately I'm pretty lenient.

Zetacron: Zetacron I think I value much more than most people. I just think he's such a good tool to snipe powerful figures, which a lot of armies need. Not that he'll kill Q9, but does he have a good chance of dealing much needed damage to him? yes. Also I just think he's very likely to kill more that 60pt. And if not, he'll probably kill his points worth of commons at the least. He's definitely not a 9, but I value him at a high 8. Most players don't though, so I'm open to some change. Maybe it's just because he's one of my personal favorite figures haha

And it was quite the undertaking indeed lol. It took me about 3 weeks.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Yeah I think you know my thoughts/stance on Minions/Sentinels, Braxas, and Laglor haha. . I will consider dropping Laglor to 8 though, just because he's probably the only 9 that lacks the results, or that you don't see often at all. I still think he's really good though.

As far as the other ones you mentioned, I'll make some quick comments:

Trons: Yeah I understand Trons don't really like the formats nowadays.....but I still think they are great figures. They probably drop down to low-9/high-8 when you limit them to 16-18 figures. But when it's 20+, they're very strong. I basically have them that high because although I have not personally had as much success with them as that ranked position, I know many top players have. Spider, lonewolf, Mattser, dok. But yes, nowadays the usual formats aren't as accomodating for them. Maybe I should move them to a mid-Tier-9? Or low-Tier-9? Does that sound more accurate?

WoA: I'm going to let the list sit for like a week and then update it with some tweaks. They will move up to mid-Tier-6 I think. I was going to put them as 6 anyways but was reluctant and put them as a safe high-5.

Kozuke: Really? I always think of them as the worst of the 3 samurai squads...but all 3 are pretty equal in power I had thought. They are interesting and definitely have a different niche than the other two. I just worry if you are going to kill your 100pt. worth with them, and that they almost always die before doing so. They are interesting, pretty deadly, I could be wrong.

Tandros: I remember when this figure first came out I thought he was really good, he reminded me of Kaemon Awa. But he never performed very well in my games with him. 7 life 4 defense is really good though. Not sure, I like him at 5, I might've put him too low in that Tier I could see him at a higher position in 5. But I haven't played too many competitive games with this figure.

Hounds: Already mentioned my thoughts on them in an above post.

MBS: I had Me-Burq-Sa higher in the 9-Tier originally, but moved him down in the final list. He's a great figure, pretty much always kills more than 50pt., sometimes much more. Gives the Romans/Deathchasers an incredibly useful tool for competing. Also a fine figure outside those army types. I guess I moved him down because I felt he didn't do as much damage as those that are higher. I could see moving him up.

Kaemon Awa: The Hydra has really hurt Kaemon's frequency in competitive play, being that they're the same points and fill pretty similar roles. Originally I had him as a high 8, but I guess I had some bias in that just because he's not as common in tournaments as he once was, but that doesn't mean he's any worse. I don't see myself dropping him from 9, but I am a bit reluctant moving him that much higher.

Eltahale: Very well could be. She's one of the units I mentioned that I need some help ranking, as I haven't had enough tournament experience/knowledge with her but I know she's good.

Mezzodemons: Same thing as Eltahale. I don't see them as being as good as Romans, that seems like a stretch to me. If I do move them up to 8 they'd likely be low. But again, I need some help with these dudes so ultimately I'm pretty lenient.

Zetacron: Zetacron I think I value much more than most people. I just think he's such a good tool to snipe powerful figures, which a lot of armies need. Not that he'll kill Q9, but does he have a good chance of dealing much needed damage to him? yes. Also I just think he's very likely to kill more that 60pt. And if not, he'll probably kill his points worth of commons at the least. He's definitely not a 9, but I value him at a high 8. Most players don't though, so I'm open to some change. Maybe it's just because he's one of my personal favorite figures haha

And it was quite the undertaking indeed lol. It took me about 3 weeks.

Could you cite where you’re seeing that the Hydra has hurt the amount that Kaemon sees play? Not true at least at GenCon.

[Dysole]

I mean I've seen a lot more hydras than Kaemons at Gencon. It seems reasonable to assume Kaemon would be filing a number of those slots.

~Dysole, noting it's hard to prove a counterfactual

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Dysole

I mean I've seen a lot more hydras than Kaemons at Gencon. It seems reasonable to assume Kaemon would be filing a number of those slots.

~Dysole, noting it's hard to prove a counterfactual

Really? I mean, sure, Hydras are everywhere in Monster Mash, but since 2012, the number of the two has been pretty equal. Nowadays especially I see more Kaemon (of course, the meta drop in RtW has an impact on that).

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Really? I mean, sure, Hydras are everywhere in Monster Mash, but since 2012, the number of the two has been pretty equal. Nowadays especially I see more Kaemon (of course, the meta drop in RtW has an impact on that).

It appears to me that I see Hydra(s) like x3 more often than Kaemon. It's just something I've noticed, I don't think you see Kaemon nearly as often as you once did.

I missed the last two GenCons though, so I can't speak for those years.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Also, almost every tournament bans Marvel figures, this list is assuming Marvel figures are banned. I always think that way when I view the game, as mixing Marvel kind of breaks the game when you include Thanos, Captain America, and Silver Surfer. But I did rank each Marvel unit at the end had they be ranked if they are allowed and are submerged in the same competitive environment. The large majority of standard units in the game I feel don't really shift that much (some things do.....like healers become higher) in a mixed Marvel environment, though. But that's a different list I don't feel like making haha.

Personally I don't think the official Marvel units break the game. Change it, yes, but break it, no. (Although I do kinda wish Cap was at least 230, and you could still play Cap, 3x 4th, Sam [Falcon?], which is still really strong.) I do completely agree however that it's not worth making an entire new list just for those 10 figures, haha.

Originally Posted by Cleon

I'd love to hear any or all thoughts from top/great players

...

@Deroche

Pick one.


I think your list looks pretty good overall. I'm personally not too interested in getting into the nitpicking between so many units, so I'll leave that to more capable players such as yourself with more interest/investment in competitive 'scape.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Personally I don't think the official Marvel units break the game. Change it, yes, but break it, no. (Although I do kinda wish Cap was at least 230, and you could still play Cap, 3x 4th, Sam [Falcon?], which is still really strong.) I do completely agree however that it's not worth making an entire new list just for those 10 figures, haha.

Pick one.


I think your list looks pretty good overall. I'm personally not too interested in getting into the nitpicking between so many units, so I'll leave that to more capable players such as yourself with more interest/investment in competitive 'scape.

Thanks dude. The nitpicking can become a bit irrelevant it feels sometimes, but I just love dissecting the game competitively, so I tend to do so all the time.

On Marvel, I don't think most of the units "break" the game (Hulk-Red Skull is fine).....but I feel Thanos and Captain America might. I don't play a ton of Mixed Marvel games, I don't think many people do, with mixing the classic scape with the 10 Marvel figures, and not also allowing C3V or C3G. It's kind of a format you only see at GenCon for a single event, and not every year has done it either (most have). Most people probably play the game nowadays either pure classic excluding C3V with Marvel banned, or classic including C3V with Marvel banned, or some C3G formats. I assume not many people restrict themselves to just classic, with Marvel allowed. Because of that, it's not a format that has an extensive list of results and stats.

But yeah, in the case where Marvel is mixed with classic.....I think Thanos and Captain are potentially too good. I assume Mixed Marvel's typical point value is more than 500, like 550pt. or more. At 500pt., though, these two armies worry me:

Captain America
4th Mass x4

and

Thanos
Rats x3
Isamu
Marcu

Cap+4th is pretty unbelievable, he's also I'm sure amazing with many other things, and Thanos with a rat horde where you just use Thanos until he dies, then run away the entire match until he respawns, and then repeat might be the best thing ever. I don't think that many armies can handle Thanos coming back more than once. In 500pt., Captain is probably better, but in 550pt.+, where I think Mixed Marvel probably is the usual, Thanos + Rats gets disgusting. Add MW or another set of rats at 550pt. For 600pt., it gets crazy: Thanos+ratsx4+MW+Fillers, Thanos+ratsx5+Fillers, or Thanos+ratsx4+Raelin. Maybe add Krav to the 500pt. one.

Silver Surfer also has my eye as potentially crazy good. I don't know, didn't someone play SS+Ana Karithon+Raelin and it was godlike? SS/Ana combo is nuts. He also works with 4th. I put him at a 9, wasn't sure.

If I were to ever make a Mixed Marvel list (don't think it's really necessary), 4th Mass would for sure go up to 10.