Delta: latest updates and discussion

[S1R_ART0R1US]

I'm curious about people's thought on price drops for relatively recently released figures (Ranjit down to 90, Ataraxis to 150)

[Dysole]

I supported Ranjit and actually nudged them about Ataraxis. Ranjit just is so susceptible to plans going awry that he really needs the drop. Ataraxis I could see needing a bump back but as is, a lot of her better companion units are either still really expensive or got a bump in points.

~Dysole, informationally

[gbizzy]

Originally Posted by S1R_ART0R1US

I'm curious about people's thought on price drops for relatively recently released figures (Ranjit down to 90, Ataraxis to 150)

I think Ranjit dropping to 90 might be too low but as someone who enjoys the unorthodox armies you can build around him I'm not unhappy about it. I've been playing Ranjit ton recently with both Lawmen & unique squads and had a ton of success. Ataraxis going down to 150 feels about right

[Vydar_XLIII]

I think the Ataraxis drop is right too. Marcu is basically an auto-include in her armies. Terrifying and a cheap hero for the Nanobot Virus. Her 10 point drop from keeps the duo at the same cost as in non-delta.

[Chris Perkins]

Regarding Ranjit:

Caveat: I love Ranjit and would love to see him actually be viable.

1) Ranjit is already hurt by the best Ranjit-things going up (significantly) in Delta. I'm thinking about, among others: Krav, Rats, Raelin. Guilty going up in VC-Delta is actually kinda relevant too, though less relevant if you can't fit Raelin because he's a Lion-of-Punjab-Risk.

2) Being forced to telegraph your OMs is a massive hinderance. Ranjit forces this to the extreme. And, to cap it off, if you succeed in burning the OM, the bonus is lost for the round. That's probably the biggest downside; if it was like Steamroller where the Gladiators kept the bonus for the round, he would be way stronger, because he has access to a lot more cheap unique heroes.

3) Ranjit has only been played two times in delta tournaments tracked by .org. Note: this does NOT include OHS, where Ranjit has seen way more use. So it's not a perfect measure. But I do think it means many people have actively passed on him often enough to merit the drop.

4) For armies that are more "unorthodox", as gbizzy put it, I'm 100% fine with risking over-correcting a bit too much to provide the opportunity for someone to develop a strong way to play the build and show how it can be done successfully (as long as the army isn't cancerous to the meta; Deadeye Dan rolling his d20 is different). I'd rather put an unorthodox figure at 5-10 points under where they "should" cost (not that it's what I think we're doing here) if it encourages people to actually find out what the optimal builds are, as that both enhances the games' strategy and gives better data for future Delta releases. Again, not necessarily applying here, but a general metric I think is useful.

So I guess the summary is: I think 90 points is a good spot for Ranjit, but if someone proves that wrong and shows meaningful success with him, that's also great.

[dok]

The way I describe Ranjit is that he essentially forces you to build a "toolbox" build. By itself, that's already a mild disadvantage (consistent armies tend to do better) but it gives you the advantage of versatility. But then, if you want to actually take advantage of Ranjit's power, you have to abandon that versatility because your OMs are in a straightjacket. Combine that with the inherent fragility and it's a really tough combo.

But as I said, I'm excited to see people make a run with him at this lower price.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Thanks all for the feedback! Certainly makes sense that Ranjit needs to be cheaper to offset the Delta cost of figures he works well with.

I suppose it makes sense that if he is a balanced figure, the same army would cost similarly in Delta and non-Delta formats. And that can only be achieved with a higher released point value and significant Delta discount, as opposed to releasing him at 90 points and then giving non-Delta armies with him a significant benefit.

[Grey Waves]

Does Mimring really deserve to be 170 points when his 2 most essential support pieces, Arrow Gruts and Raelin, have also both increased in price as well? People keep saying to me Scapecon 3 proves Mimring is worth that much, but he didn't actually do that well in any of the delta events there? I don't doubt that Mimring does provide 170 points worth of value to the classic AG/Raelin build, but when Arrow Gruts typically cost 20-30 points more (because you'll usually be running 4-6 squads of them) and Raelin has gone up a whopping 55 points, I can't help but feel that 170 points for Mimring is just too expensive.

[Rybotts11]

Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider

My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak

The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"

Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.

I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Rybotts11

Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider

My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak

The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"

Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.

I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.

Hey.

Couple of things/thoughts.

1) 650 is already outside the bounds of what Delta's shooting for (generally 400 - 600), so just a note that sometimes things can get wonky at that total in ways that we don't necessarily want to fix because of consequences for the 400 - 600 point range.

2) Mok really is more than 155 effective points, because of the need for dwarves. Even just 1 squad of Axe ups that cost to 240 points, and he then needs them to take turns in-game to get on him. I think the 155 point total is a bit deceptive because of that. To some degree, killing Mok's support is part of killing Mok, like killing TKN's support (Grubs) is part of killing him, so I think it's important to somewhat view those points as part of Mok's points whenever considering his cost in delta.

3) I don't think WoB are a particularly good counter to Mok anyways, because they can't pull off their SA into him (or Q10, for that matter). Although Werewolf Lord is obviously a much better counter because of being able to take turns.

I probably think Mok is still fine at the current 155, thought I could be persuaded otherwise, but it probably requires more results, and from a sub-600 point event.

[Rybotts11]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

Hey.

Couple of things/thoughts.

1) 650 is already outside the bounds of what Delta's shooting for (generally 400 - 600), so just a note that sometimes things can get wonky at that total in ways that we don't necessarily want to fix because of consequences for the 400 - 600 point range.

2) Mok really is more than 155 effective points, because of the need for dwarves. Even just 1 squad of Axe ups that cost to 240 points, and he then needs them to take turns in-game to get on him. I think the 155 point total is a bit deceptive because of that. To some degree, killing Mok's support is part of killing Mok, like killing TKN's support (Grubs) is part of killing him, so I think it's important to somewhat view those points as part of Mok's points whenever considering his cost in delta.

3) I don't think WoB are a particularly good counter to Mok anyways, because they can't pull off their SA into him (or Q10, for that matter). Although Werewolf Lord is obviously a much better counter because of being able to take turns.

I probably think Mok is still fine at the current 155, thought I could be persuaded otherwise, but it probably requires more results, and from a sub-600 point event.

I appreciate the reply. I did not know delta was made for 400-600 point games. That is good to know

If you look at similar figures for example Jotun, they have similar stats and Jotun is still 55 points more.

I do understand Jotun has a squad bonding option. In my opinion, even though Mok does not have the "bonding" per se, he does have more versatility in how he plays the game. He is a hero and squad killer who is not as situational as most other figures. He has the potential to have a 7+ attack and a 3 attack on the same figure and then another potential 3 attack on a figure he is not engaged with. Because of this versatility, he was able to kill 2 full-life werewolf lords in one round. That's 240 points in one round not including some wolves of badru he killed as well. For only half of his lives

I feel like points need to be adjusted for an army not having any ranged units to shoot the dwarves off of his shoulders, I understand its hard to adjust for every scenario but for a unit like Mok, I feel it is necessary due to his versatility.

Ill also add, having the dwarves in an army with Mok aside, what other stand-alone hero has stats even close to moks?

[caps]

Note that in non-VC Delta, where Jotun has no bonding, he is only 190 points, which is only 35 points more than Mok.