Heroscape & Arena of the Planeswalker

[SlyQC]

Well, first of all, first post for me, I've been in the shadows for a while now, looking around and feeding my appetite for Heroscape


I'm actually really late to the party, having started playing a few months ago, and I also got the Magic : Arena of the Planeswalker game.


I've been looking around for a while, and I've been trying to get ideas not to CONVERT one game to another, but to fully INTEGRATE both as a whole. I love some mechanics of one game and some of the other, and I think those subtle differences can be harmonized. I do not claim that I know a lot about that, but my general experience in card games, board games and miniatures will help.




Now I hope that a few of you will be reading the message, and would be willing to help out to create a nice implementation that could use both games.


Now, to the major differences :


- Planeswalker, Deck & Summons : this is the meat of Arena of the Planeswalker. Are the Planeswalker really OP compared to other high points heroes (like Marvel). Should the Planeswalker be considered only with his deck (200pts) or should all players have a "standard deck" (colorless, probably less powerful). Is the Deck mandatory or to be used only with the Planeswalker?


- Army Building : Using the Heroscape armies and Magic "Summons", should we treat the HS armies as summon and link them to one of the Magic Colors, or keep the armies as standalone units and use Magic armies as "Summons" from the Planeswalker. Or Drop the whole summon thing and start with all units on the Battleground


- Multiple HP Squads : Are they too powerful or the points feel balanced enough? I've seem the 2 hp squads, but do they worth the points or are OP?



And minor things :


- Initiative : I like the turn makers in Heroscape, and I think that it might be more of a preference for most of you.


- General Goal : Destroy the enemy Planeswalker can be one of many scenario goals, but if you chose that, you NEED to take a Planeswalker. Again, you might want to play a normal game with any goals you want.


Like I said, this is more of a collective brainstorming, hopefully, someone else will be interested to work this with me, to make sure that the whole thing feels balanced enough.

[Dad_Scaper]

Good luck with the project! I'll follow along with interest.

Welcome in from the shadows.

[SlyQC]

Thanks I hope that some people will join in.

Another preoccupation I have :

- Summons (Magic Units) / HS Units
(as a reference, I will name Magic Units "Summons" to show the difference)

I have actually two ideas, and not sure which one to use

1a) Convert all Faction in HS in Magic "colors". Doing this, some cards that can affect particular colors will be able to affect original HS units.

1b) Otherwise, we can keep the original HS Units as colorless, so that could be either a bonus or not, depends on the card that would affect them.

2a) Keep Magic Squads/Heroes as SUMMONS, and HS Units would already start on the battlefield. Thematic-wise, it does make sense, since they are units to assist the Planeswalker. That also means that HS Units would not be affected by Unsummon or spells like that, some that would target SQUADS. So there would be HS SQUADS/HERO and SUMMONS SQUADS/HEROES

2b) Otherwise either start with everything on the battlefield and forget about summoning power of the Planeswalker // or start with just the Planeswalker and summons each Magic and HS Squads/Heroes on the Battlefield as per Arena of the Planeswalker Rules

[SlyQC]

While I'm here, another thing :

- Army Values

I know that some Summons (Magic Units) Squads have multiple HP, which is a thing that HS didn't had. So that does bring a few set of questions :

- Are the points values of the Summons Over-powered in Magic ?

- Does being a "Summon" should be considered as a bonus or not (Summons can only be put on the battlefield by the Planeswalker, and once per game), however, they can also be targeted by some magic that targets a particular color to help/hinder them.

- How does one compares "power-level-wise" to the various HS Units available ?

[IshMEL]

I like where you're going with this! Here are my thoughts on integration, there's a lot of overlap with yours.

Planeswalkers are like regular Heroscape heroes. They should each be assigned to a General, in addition to their Magic color(s).

When drafting a Planeswalker you can also draft its spells (in the proper color) and its Summoned Squads for their point costs. You can also draft whatever other Heroscape units you care to use.

When revealing an Order Marker on a Planeswalker, you can cast spells, Summon units, OR take a turn with a Summoned Squad you control. Basically, what you would normally do on a turn of AotP. If an opponent takes temporary control of a Planeswalker, they can't take an "AotP" turn, just a regular "Heroscape" turn. If they take permanent control, they can cast spells etc.

Summoned Squads are beings of pure magic, which is a convenient retcon for their not being painted. They have a color but not a General, and can only be Summoned by a Planeswalker. They also have multiple Lives, because magic. But every part of a Summoned Squad is part of its hit zone. Just imagine those grey parts are all red.

If a Planeswalker is destroyed, the Summoned Squads remain extant, and all spells in effect remain in effect on their cards. But no new spells may be cast. You will have to put Order Markers on your Summoned Squads from now on!

One other question is about current Heroscape powers that treat Squads and Heroes differently. Do these need to be fixed? Can Grimnak chomp a Summoned Squad? Can Sonlen heal one with Dragon Swoop? Here's a list of powers (Official and VC) that affect heroes and squads differently. I'm not sure if this list is complete. I also left out powers like Circuitry Overload that affect squads of a specific race, bonding powers, etc.

Barge Into Battle
Chomp
Cleave
*Dragon Healing
Dismiss The Rabble
Easy Prey
Fanatical Advance
Fledgling Fires Special Attack
*Healing Touch
*Healing Word
*Lay on Hands
Majestic Fires Special Attack
*Mortal Strike
*Poison Weapons
Poisonous Acid Breath
Slippery 6
Stare Of Stone

The easiest thing, of course, would be to assume that Summoned Squads are always Squads. I could see an argument for including Summoned Squads for multiple-wound powers like Mortal Strike, or healing powers, since those powers are written with the assumption that all Squads have 1 Life. I put a * next to those.

[SlyQC]

I love the idea that Spells can only be played if a turn marker was put on the Planeswalker (and that it would be a special turn that follows the AoP rules).

Another option was that you could play 1 spell per ROUND, UNLESS your Planeswalker is the active unit (which would be 3 cards on the Planeswalker TURN instead)

[wriggz]

The biggest challenge for me is actually the number of cards.

Re creating 15 (soon to be 24) magic unit cards is much less than the couple hundred Classic scape cards, not to mention C3V and SoV units if you have them, and any customs you may already use.

[SlyQC]

Originally Posted by wriggz

The biggest challenge for me is actually the number of cards.

Re creating 15 (soon to be 24) magic unit cards is much less than the couple hundred Classic scape cards, not to mention C3V and SoV units if you have them, and any customs you may already use.

No need to re-create anything. I'm not CONVERTING either units, I'm just integrating both as one-single game.


So each one can keep all their stats and cards. Magic Summons are more rare because of they are a magical manifestation from the planeswalker... makes sense

[Targanth]

I think that it works to use the new Colorless hero and squad as examples of how some Heroscape cards can be directly used within AotP.

The colorless figures (Eldrazi Ruiner and Scions) cost 150 an 55 points respectively, for a total of 205. What if we selected two cards from Heroscape and compared them.

Eldrazi Ruiner L8 M5 R1 A6 D3 150pts
Eldrazi Scions L2 M7 R1 A3 D3 55 Pts

Krug . . . . . . . L8 M5 R1 2A 3D 120 Pts
Anubian Wolves L1 M6 R1 A1 D4 75 Pts

For 195 points we can place Krug and one squad of Anubian Wolves in the army of a Planeswalker as colorless armies. Krug is on a par with the Ruiner, and might even be stronger as he get wounded. The wolves do not have synergy with Krug in the same was as the Scions do with the Ruiner, but they certainly have an opportunity to make an impact with a favorable die roll.

Clearly there are certain 'scape armies that would not make the move without some modifications. In general, since common squads have not yet been implemented in AotP, I would hesitate to use multiples of aHeroscape squad in an army. However, once we understand how AotP will implement commons, it may be a simple solution.

[The B.I.V.]

This is difficult. People here tend to look at the Planeswalkers as equal to Unique Heroes in HS but I don't think that's quite the case. I see them as more on the level of a Valkyrie General than Unique Hero. I mean, they summon creatures the way the Valkyries do and they can cast multiple spells per battle, many of which can range over the entire battlefield. That's pretty powerful.

Their raw stats are pretty epic, too. There are very few HS heroes that have 6 and 7 life. Many have pointed out that Nissa has a similar run-and-gun ability to Silver Surfer, which is fairly broken when used against classic scape figs.

I think the Planeswalkers would have to be nerfed quite a bit to get to a unique hero level. I think you could keep their cost about where it is and remove their spell casting abilities. That would make them equivalent to Marvelscape heroes. From there, you'd have to adjust their raw stats and powers and then decide how much to lower their cost to make them equal to Classicscape Unique heroes...

[AMIS]

I tend to agree with The B.I.V. but I've also been thinking if you simply remove spells (other than summoning) and use some classic heroes (Kato, Hive, Taelord, Cyprien etc) as summoners then this may work.

It's something that'd have to be tested though.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by The B.I.V.

This is difficult. People here tend to look at the Planeswalkers as equal to Unique Heroes in HS but I don't think that's quite the case. I see them as more on the level of a Valkyrie General than Unique Hero. I mean, they summon creatures the way the Valkyries do and they can cast multiple spells per battle, many of which can range over the entire battlefield. That's pretty powerful.

Their raw stats are pretty epic, too. There are very few HS heroes that have 6 and 7 life. Many have pointed out that Nissa has a similar run-and-gun ability to Silver Surfer, which is fairly broken when used against classic scape figs.

I think the Planeswalkers would have to be nerfed quite a bit to get to a unique hero level. I think you could keep their cost about where it is and remove their spell casting abilities. That would make them equivalent to Marvelscape heroes. From there, you'd have to adjust their raw stats and powers and then decide how much to lower their cost to make them equal to Classicscape Unique heroes...

Why not just make the Valkyrie Generals, as Planeswalkers.... Then they can summon their own units. That idea sounds pretty cool to me.