Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Vydar_XLIII]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I consider your previous submission of Kafnirra withdrawn.

The previous Kafnirra submission already had 4/7 downvotes. Yours, mine, Dysole's and Vegie's.

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Kafnirra Resubmission: As I've told @Shadowking in our Discord conversations, this is miles better than the previous version. I feel like it is going to have a rough time getting through the IS vote, given the anti-synergy power. I don't know who, but I feel like there may be a few hard opinions against something like this. Personally, I don't love it, but its the only way for this design to do the thing it wants to do.

I still like my version of the anti-synergy power (Wild Ones, post 7921) better than this. (Again, except for the name. Yours is much better.) I don't know what allowing a bonding turn without the ability to attack is doing for you that not allowing that turn doesn't do. I'm missing some theme that bridges that gap for me.

The only difference is that you can move an extra figure in RtW or other odd format. Thorgrim is a better choice in every instance. RtW armies don't play figures that have bad interactions with each other the way the KoW and Kafnirra have.

I'm voting now. Mostly because I want to have the discussion with the entire VC voting body about whether an anti-synergy power like this is something we want to do in instances where it is the only way to achieve a specific design.

[Dysole]

That's a very interesting thought Vydar and I also want to have that discussion. I also discussed with SK on Discord and felt this version was good enough. I do want to let the comments by Sir H and Mega sit in my head first before I commit to an upvote though.

~Dysole, musingly

[Shadowking]

For what it's worth I will happily admit that the specific point costs have def. been my weakest note in terms of my Heroscape customs so far; I tend to be able to get an OK feel for the play generally I think, but the specific nuances of the points are def. the thing I struggle most with, and while I can usually pin down a decent "range" for the price - I could certainly believe it to be possible that this version of her would be fine at 70 or 75 points, for example; the attack drop and loss of SA is not small despite the range increase - I have tended to air on the side of caution and higher costs rather than lower.

In general I do agree on average she's often not stronger than many of the other options available for these squads - Guilty for Dreadguls is clearly stronger, Gilbert or Alastair for MacDirks - and obviously Raelin is super good with most things. However, I also think she adds interesting play to both of them despite that - using her *with* Guilty as a way to keep him alive longer can be pretty neat, and she protects MacDirks in a different way to Thorgrim while still being able to deliver ranged pings on bonding turns which he obviously doesn't get to do. You also have the ability to create interesting hybrid builds of Knights and/or MacDirks and/or Dreadguls and various associated heroes in "fun" games, pod draft, RTW, etc; all of which I think still has value to it as a design even if she can't be considered the strongest pick in many (even potentially any) scenarios.

In regards to the attack value, I felt that once her range was increased to 6 over 4 (and with her drop in points) the 3 attack dice became less desirable in terms of the overall design; it's then much more reliable to be able to sit back on height and attack, and she has a decent bit more survivability than Guilty in doing so. It is a point to take on board for sure though if this new version also gets pushback in those areas.

(and sidenote, but yeah I believe vegie's votes for Major F19, Annundhounds and Jan need to be added to the main post by whoever has editing power over it - that would also have given the other version of Kafnirra her fourth to strike her off anyway I think, but I started working on this one in the interim of the earlier s regardless)

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII

The previous Kafnirra submission already had 4/7 downvotes. Yours, mine, Dysole's and Vegie's.

Crap, I missed vegie's post. Updated the OP.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Lee Jun by @Leaf_It

Creativity
The design space for an Einar Monk is quite constrained. Einar has certain theme beats that most of his units meet and embody. HeroScape Monks have certain theme beats that they all hit. VC already has a Monk Hero for many of the other Valkyrie Generals, so there are a lot of things that an Einar Monk can’t do without risk of retreading the same ground as its predecessors.

Where other submissions like Masha Shingai and Nordlung tread brand new creative ground, Lee Jun has to fit into the very specific niche that has been created for him by the rest of HeroScape and VC canon.

Fortunately, Lee Jun hits the mark for me. He follows from Monk precedents where he should and “strikes” out on his own with his own style where he can.

Theme
Bending Reed Stance and Melee Combat Expert, which on their own are incredibly thematic monk powers, combine to describe a monk that is reactive. One who gets stronger after he has been attacked, and one who does better when surrounded by multiple foes. He takes hits and re-directs his attacker’s force right back at them.

The miniature paints the same picture. Knees bent, weight on the back foot, and a wide guard all feel to me like a defensive stance.

Most importantly, this theme plays out on the battlefield. You want Lee right in the action where he gets boosted defense and then the better he blocks, the more damage he can do.

Balance
The most obvious place of comparison is to the other non-Master Monk heroes.

At first glance Lee has the most in common with Yi Feng. They both have the same right side stats except for Yi’s 4 base attack dice, they both have Stealth Leap and they both have a defense based power. That’s really where the similarities end. Yi’s Iron Shirt Mastery, while a defense based power, doesn’t help him survive, it just does more damage. Lee Jun is the only non-master Monk hero with a defensive power and that gives him a very unique role within this faction.

To avoid being overly verbose (as I am known to do), and since I agree with both previous reviews on this, I’ll summarize. I think most of the non-Master Monk heroes including Lee are sub-par outside their ideal matchup. And Lee being priced in the middle of the pack feels right given what he can do.

Playability
Lee Jun is a powerful hero in a Monk army, his ability to store extra attacks with his Bending Reed Stance makes his opponents not want to take single attacks at him. This ability allows for interesting decisions on both sides. I’ve found Lee Jun to be a decent first line against range. Since the Shaolin Monks struggle against ranged commons, sending Lee out first to draw some fire and tie up the units at the front to draw fire off your common monks is often a rewarding play. Lee might not destroy his points worth in this kind of game, but he allows the rest of your army to engage while taking less casualties.

Unfortunately, the nature of Lee’s power set makes him very swingy. He may tank all the ranged fire and be able to pull off a pseudo-Whirlwind sometimes. But he also can whiff his defense rolls and provide little value. When Bending Reed works, Lee can become very versatile. Multi-attacks combined with Stealth Leap allow Lee to hit whatever piece he wants.

The most important thing Lee Jun does the other Monk heroes don’t is that he forces his opponents to make hard choices. Lee’s positioning can force opponents to choose between attacking him early and potentially building up Bending Reed attacks or possibly overextending to attack better targets. Often the best plan is for an opponent to ignore Lee if they can which, can be capitalized on by the Monk player. I like figures that force decisions and interactions that change the way the players think about the game.

Summary
I think Lee Jun is the 3rd best Monk hero, only behind the Masters. And he does it without outclassing the other 3 non-master heroes. He isn’t strictly better than them in a way that would be problematic, but his niche expands the utility of the Monk’s toolkit beyond spreading a ton of melee damage around to a lot of targets.

He makes both players think hard about the way they play him/into him. This allows for interesting play and counterplay to take place during a game.

I vote to induct Lee Jun into the SoV.

[Scytale]

Diorite Defender by @ryguy266

The Granite Guardians are a fun unit that are moderately effective in numbers. They wouldn't mind getting a hero to boost them.

Balance

How does one price a unit like this? Stats-wise it's tough as nails but can't do much offensively. Instead, it provides a +1/+1 to all adjacent friendly figures which does not stack with height advantage. That's amazing but limited in potency. I dunno. 100 points is a good starting guess.

Theme

The design feels like a Granite Guardian Hero. Most of the design feels like the Granites, including the slow speed + Gain Higher Ground, plus a hero-like helpful cheerleader ability. The figure looks pretty good too, and doesn't look bad next to the Granites.

Creativity

Rock Pillars is a really neat idea. I like the mental picture of the Diorite raising up adjacent figures on rising rocks. And it is a great help to the Granite Guardians without being explicit. Gain Higher Ground is a good addition that doesn't make a Diorite Defender turn feel like a waste compared to Granite Guardian turns.

Playability

In testing it quickly became clear that the best build for the Diorite Defender didn't include the Granite Guardians. Anyone who's ever played a range unit can tell you the value of claiming high ground, the faster the better. Take advantage of the bonus attack and defense dice and shoot, shoot, shoot. Well, the Diorite Defender is a make-your-own platform that you can move.

The value of the Diorite as a gun platform is both map- and opponent-dependent, of course. Boosting the highest point doesn't accomplish anything, and positioning the big Elementar takes order markers. But very frequently the Diorite can provide an easy-to-get-to shooting platform, essentially providing +1 Attack and +1 Defense to adjacent friendlies. Remember, Rock Pillars is not actually height for movement, so your range figures don't have to climb it, unlike real hills. This makes it very easy to reinforce lost units.

Does the big rocky fellow help Granite Guardians? Yes, and that's fine, but the boost to range pods is better.

Summary

I quite like the concept of the Diorite Defender. Rock Pillars is an especially clever way to boost the Granite Guardians, and the rest of the unit looks and feels right. But it's too useful for already powerful builds. A platform that can be placed where desired that does not cost movements to climb up is just too broadly useful for range pods, especially ones with long range that do not require the Diorite to move much. This is not a statement of balance, it's a statement of gameplay. I just don't want range pods boosted in this way.

I vote Nay to induct the Diorite Defender into the SoV.

[MegaSilver]

Sounds like it would be best if the ability only worked with Elementars.

[ryguy266]

After some discussion with @Scytale about his very insightful review, and considering the length of time units sit in the voting process, I will formally withdraw my Diorite Defender design with the intent to resubmit a renewed version in the near future.

[Scytale]

The Diorite Defender has been withdrawn by the designer and has been removed from the process.

[AndreThaGiant]

Was there any movement while the site was down by chance?

[wriggz]

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112

Like Scytale and superfrog before me, I previously reviewed the old integration of Masha Shingai, so likewise I will briefly refer to the changes here instead of a full review. Before proceeding however, I want to call out using SoV as an iterative process. Astroking112 decided to take the feedback from 3 judges and make minor changes while still adhering to the original design vision. Astro could have just as easily decided his custom was not suited for SoV and enjoyed Masha on his own table. I believe designers should have a strong design vision before submitting to SoV and not compromise that vision or use the SoV as a design crutch. Not passing the SoV process is not a failure, only an acknowledgement that your custom is not suited to join established fanscape cannon.

Speaking of vision, Masha Shingai returns with only minor changes:

1. Species: For anyone who read my review of the Yokai faction, you will recall my, concerns with lumping Japanese mythical creatures into the category of Yokai. While it is true that Oni are a class of Yokai, I much prefer the specific rather than the broad term as it is more in keeping with referring to Minotaur and Hydra instead of monsters. However, my main concern with the Yokai faction had to do with presentation as a group and specifically Abe no Seimei rather than a single unit. In a vacuum I have minimal concerns with using the term Yokai here.
   
2. Samurai exclusion to Terror of the Honorless: This was a direct sticking point in my previous review. While unique squads are now at the mercy of Masha’s terrifying presence, the samurai archers are now immune.
   
3. Larger aura on Fiery Retribution: In my previous review I compared Masha to other samurai cheerleaders and found him lacking. Making the Aura larger made it easier to manage, especially given the number of unique army cards a strong Masha build includes. When drafting Masha for his aura you want to either include multiple unique Samurai squads and/or a pool of Samurai Archers and maybe even a couple of Samurai Heroes. Due to Counter Strike you will likely want to bring Raelin and her aura as well, making managing the tight Auras challenging.
   
4. Increase move to 6: This was a surprising addition and one that I found most favorable. While allowing Masha to play nice with Samurai Archers made thematic sense, and the increased Aura size made army building and management simpler, the added speed enhanced Masha in multiple ways.
   
   • Thematically: Masha is a large figure on the card and in person. Letting the Yokai move faster than standard humans and on par with the elite Samurai he is aiding just makes sense.
     
   • Cheerleading: before the update armies including Masha felt slow. Not only did the player need to spread out their order markers to keep everyone in Masha’s aura, but the big guy would trail behind the faster Samurai.
     
   • Beatstick: sometimes you just want to hit something with a big attack and 6 move lets you get the melee Yokia right into the action. Like Alistair MacDirk taking a wound to overextend, Masha’s 6 move helps him get first strike, since 3 Defense will not hold up well to concentrate fire.

Summary.
AstroKing112 held to his vision making minor changes to his custom, which I feel make both thematic and playability improvements. The new version has the speed and threat range to match the imposing stature of the mini. While the Samurai Archers with Masha are far from a top tier army, I do feel the Archers’ playability is increased especially against favorable match ups. Thematic Samurai armies are a home favorite in these parts, and I look forward to fielding Masha Shingai again.

I vote to induct Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112

Not passing the SoV process is not a failure, only an acknowledgement that your custom is not suited to join established fanscape cannon.

Haven't about 50% of all SoV units ever released not passed the SoV process at least once?