Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[Dignan]

Maps pending acceptance for review:

Stygian Rift by Typhoon2222

Stygian Rift is an interesting map taking advantage of two Dungeon master sets and a lava terrain set. The center of the map features a large portion of shadow tiles surrounded by lava on high ground. The rock outcrop pieces are used to solid effect to limit the line of sight around the map. A glyph is featured on each flank.

The construction of the map is a little suspect. Not all the tiles are properly supported. You can get away with some voids under battlefields, but this map pushed the envelope in that regard. For my taste, I would prefer better support when constructing a map. This is a slight knock against the map.

The layout of the central area of the map is great. Typhoon has created little paths through the center of the map with the shadow tiles. Figures are able to quickly move through the middle with the added protection shadow. This is offset by surrounding high ground of lava. The whole area works very well during the game with many meaningful and interesting choices to make when moving your figures.

The area around each glyph is a point of interest. There is a bit of imbalance in regards to both flanks. The glyph to a player's left hand side is generally easier to establish a dominate position over. There are two reasons for this. One, the path to the right hand side narrows to only two hexes wide. This can limit the speed at which players are able to reinforce this area as figures bottleneck in their movement.

A larger concern about the balance is the high ground on the opposing sides of the glyph. On your left hand side, you are given higher ground than on your right. This allows ranged units on the left to out gun opposing units in that area. Additionally, the line of side granted on the right hand side is significantly limited compared to the left (though this is a smaller concern).

In the end, I found that the map imbalance in the map had a negative impact on the games. I really love the center of the map and feel that there is a ton of great things going here, but it's not enough to overlook the drawbacks. NO to induct.

[Typhon2222]

Thanks for the review Dignan!

I had hoped that the advantages you mention of going left (less bottlenecking; height advantage for ranged) would be countered by the fact that melee units going right can directly attack the glyph from height (and are largely screened from the center while doing so), whereas going left forces them to attack the glyph from only equal ground, while also leaving them more open to fire. So I imagined that whether the left or right path was more attractive to a player would largely depend on the particular mix of melee and/or ranged units fielded by both players in a given game.

But if that wasn't your impression, I can only bow to your (much greater) experience. Thanks again.

[Dignan]

Updated 10/2/11

Logged Dignan: YtI Blacktop, YtR Stygian Rift, NtI Stygian Rift
Logged Lonewolf: YtI Bad Moon Rising
Logged nyys: NtI Blacktop, YtR Stygian Rift
Logged Mathias: YtR Stygian Rift, NtI Blacktop
Logged 1Mmirg: YtR Stygian Rift, NtI Tresspasser
Logged madwookie: YtR Stygian Rift
Blacktop removed from review
Stygian Rift moved to review
Bad Moon Rising inducted into BoV

Maps pending acceptance for review:

None

Maps currently being reviewed:

Trespasser by Dignan
YES = 0 ; NO = 1 ; PENDING = 4 (lonewolf, mad_wookiee, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys) * Removed Dignan as map creator

Stygian Rift by Typhoon2222
YES = 0 ; NO = 1 (Dignan); PENDING = 5 (1Mmirg, lonewolf, mad_wookiee, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys)

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

Thanks for the review Dignan!

I had hoped that the advantages you mention of going left (less bottlenecking; height advantage for ranged) would be countered by the fact that melee units going right can directly attack the glyph from height (and are largely screened from the center while doing so), whereas going left forces them to attack the glyph from only equal ground, while also leaving them more open to fire.

Personally, I found much of that advantage mitigated by allowing the forces on the left to attack the glyph from the protection of shadow. Had those shadow tiles not been there, it would have been a much different story for my games.

So I imagined that whether the left or right path was more attractive to a player would largely depend on the particular mix of melee and/or ranged units fielded by both players in a given game.

This is true for most maps and is a reason why we have a panel of judges. We all experience different playstyles, army configurations, etc on the same map. Many of the other judges might not encountered the same things I did in my testing. Or they might not consider it an imbalance.

I applaud you for taking on an asymmetrical layout around your glyphs. You've thought it out and balanced it to your liking. These sorts of designs are very tricky and nearly difficult to please everyone with. But your map has some great polish and I really enjoy many of its attributes.

[1Mmirg]

This will be another abbreviated review. Going in for a procedure and don't want to leave this map hanging in here while I'm stuck in recovery.

I love the look of Stygian Rift. This is a great concept and fun design.

That said (yup, I used the word "concept" again, early in the review), I think the map has a few issues:

1) The structure of the map is just off enough that I'd have trouble putting this into the "best of the best." The map just isn't solid.

2) Much more minor, but related, I'm not a fan of the start zone. They feel haphazard. Almost "right" but not quite. The odd dungeon tile that is left out of the start is a bit weird, the one space pushed forward is also odd--and allows for an easy 6-space flight to the center height and the the right-hand glyph.

I can tell the choice is to not use water tiles on the map--and the map is gorgeous without them--but one fix to this map would be to pull the single sand hex from the start zone and place it under the 7-hex dungeon tile, directly under where the lone 2nd level lava tile is. This would help a lot with stability.

And you could easily place a water tile in its place. I don't normally like water start spaces, but this map needs the tiles (like Bad Moon Rising).

I would also put another water or two in the back, with the sand, so that the start zones could just be "all the sand and water on each side."

I'd even suggest considering placing a lava on next to the other lava covering sand, so that you wouldn't have any sand spaces that far forward (and close to glyphs and the center high point).

Anyhow, I feel that the map needs something structurally and that with just a few water and/or unused lava tiles that a stronger map with more clearly defined start zones would emerge. The above are just my thoughts on one way.

The glyphs didn't bother me, perhaps, as much as Dignan, but I also found them a bit unbalanced. In the end, in my opinion, they were just always hard to hold (which I like) but they seemed a bit odd, with the one side having a better height from which to attack at range and a safe place to attack with melee, while the other side only had modest height (and unsafe for melee) to attack from.

Again, I like the concept and I feel like this map is awfully close. The use of shadow and LOS blockers works well together. I love the use of high lava points and the tough choices this map encourages. I feel it is very close to BoV quality and I hope it will return again to consideration. (It's the first map that I've actually modified myself and kept playing on. That's something.)

For now, I vote NO to this version of the Stygian Rift.

[Revdyer]

Now I don't want to spill the beans or break a confidence, but when 1Mmirg says "a procedure," what he means is "a back transplant." He is getting a new spine from a large Russian woman. It should be interesting how his BoV reviews are influenced by the vodka spinal fluids.

Get well soon, my man.

[1Mmirg]

Well, the spinal fluids seem to be okay.

I'm home and recovering and, while exhausted, feeling pretty good all around.

Hope, Typhon, that we'll see the Rift here again. I love the look and idea of the map. If any of my thoughts, above, weren't clear (i.e. too much Vicodin), please let me know. I think the map has real promise.

[chief]

I would like to nominate one of my maps. It requires 1 RotV.
Ground War

[mad_wookiee]

No to review Ground War. No LoS blockers, no elevations for interesting decisions, no objectives to contest - I don't believe there would be much in the way of compelling gameplay on this map.

[chief]

Originally Posted by mad_wookiee

No to review Ground War. No LoS blockers, no elevations for interesting decisions, no objectives to contest - I don't believe there would be much in the way of compelling gameplay on this map.

We are all entitled to our opinion and you are a judge. I just want to argue my opinion to yours. Or I guess it would be an argument of perspectives...

Ground War forces players to be matched on a completely even and open board. The key words here are even and open.
Even states that the board is fair and equal to on both half's, neither player would have a handicap.
Open states that there are no LoS blockers or elevation. This is the point of Ground War. By removing those it forces the players to come toe to toe with no objective but to kill each other. That combat will be ruled by who can move their army better and the "luck of the roll"

Ground War is a completely legal and fair battlefield. I would be disappointed to see it not given a chance die to its concept. i would be happy to have it shot down because it logistically has something about it that a unit breaks or to many hexes that are unused.

[Killometer]

Originally Posted by chief

i would be happy to have it shot down because it logistically has something about it that a unit breaks

Any unit with range breaks it.

You also say that "combat will be ruled by who can move their army better" but, as mad wookiee points out, there isn't any place noteworthy to move your army to, except towards you opponent, so that decision is actually minimized on Ground War.

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by Killometer

Any unit with range breaks it.

I think its an interesting nomination, but I have to agree. In an open battlefield range wins in Heroscape. On a flat battlefield units don't have the ability to get higher, so low defense/low attack units are much weaker.

Have you tested this with a wide range of armies? I would guess you would find, for example, that a 4th Mass build would be unstoppable.