The Pre-SoV Workshop

[bmon]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Having good and evil Dwarves and Elves gives the races more depth. The same is true with Soulborgs. Certainly things like vampires and Orcs seem inherently evil, but a Noble Half Orc is something interesting.

I suppose. The battle between good and evil can cause anyone to second guess their own nature. Embracing this and letting the stories emerge seems to be the precedence already in place.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Already happened (well, a Ronin, anyway) and it was glorious.

But this actually defends my argument (in terms of classification). Why was Akumaken classed as Ronin and not Samurai? It seems like a deliberate choice to make the distinction. Would an Utgar agent be classified as a "Double Agent", for example?

I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. While the crossover between Generals and factions is a little stale and uninteresting to me, I can understand it and it does have a place in Heroscape.

[Leaf_It]

I would like feedback on these guys:

Glaurad (Utgar)

Spoiler Alert!

Name: Glaurad
General: Utgar
Species: Drow
Uniqueness: Unique Hero
Class: Guard
Personality: Fearsome
Size: Medium 5

Life: 4
Move: 5
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4
Points: 60 - 80

CURSED BLADE
When attacking with Glaurad, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, all skulls count for 1 additional hit.

GUARD OF THE DROW
If a Drow figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Glaurad would take any wounds from a normal attack, roll the 20 sided die. Add the remaining life of Glaurad to your roll. If you roll a 9-14, block 1 wound, and move Glaurad up to 2 spaces toward the affected figure. If you roll 15-18, block 2 wounds, and move Glaurad up to 4 spaces toward the affected figure. If you roll a 19 or 20, block all wounds, and place Glaurad adjacent, and within 2 height levels of the affected figure's base.

LURK IN SHADOWS
If Glaurad is on a shadow space, opponents' figures must be adjacent to attack him with a normal attack.

Xilarth (Utgar)

Spoiler Alert!

Name: Xilarth
General: Utgar
Species: Drow
Uniqueness: Unique Hero
Class: Assassin
Personality: Tricky
Size: Medium 5

Life: 3
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 3
Points: 90 - 140

SHROUD OF DARKNESS
Xilarth, and any Drow that you control within 3 clear sight spaces of Xilarth, may be considered to be on a shadow space. Shroud of Darkness does not affect figures while they are moving.

STEALTH
Figures must be adjacent to Xilarth to attack him with a normal attack

ASSASSINATE
When attacking with Xilarth, if the figure was not engaged at the start of your turn, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, Xilarth rolls 3 additional attack dice.

Points are not final. I know they both need to be higher. I plan to playtest them a lot more to see what they should be. I want to know if the abilities sound alright, and if they make sense thematically, etc.

[Dysole]

There's some wording clean up issues, but I think I get the gist.

• Cursed Blade is a weird name for a power that is inherently positive.
• Guard of the Drow should be ignore rather than block, and an if possible should be added to the adjacency requirement. You might also run into some wording issues regarding "moving closer" as Scape doesn't have this term well defined.
• Is the movement requirement to prevent them from ignoring water or lava? I think it's better to just go "When defending against an attack" as that's the only time shadow tends to come into play.
• For Assassinate, it is probably best to clarify "not engaged with Xilarth at the beginning of its turn" unless you meant something different.

The points are actually not too far off in my opinion and Xilarth might be overpriced since 3 life, 3 defense (4 usually) dies really quickly. None of them have incredibly amazing powers so nothing is really game breaking that I can see. Themewise, I'm not sure why an assassin has an inherent shroud ability (I don't recall that ability from any of the DND I've played) and also the oddness of the aforementioned Cursed Blade. Figures would be nice to judge how well the powerset matches the figures.

~Dysole, hoping she's helpful

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Dysole

There's some wording clean up issues, but I think I get the gist.

• Cursed Blade is a weird name for a power that is inherently positive.
• Guard of the Drow should be ignore rather than block, and an if possible should be added to the adjacency requirement. You might also run into some wording issues regarding "moving closer" as Scape doesn't have this term well defined.
• Is the movement requirement to prevent them from ignoring water or lava? I think it's better to just go "When defending against an attack" as that's the only time shadow tends to come into play.
• For Assassinate, it is probably best to clarify "not engaged with Xilarth at the beginning of its turn" unless you meant something different.

The points are actually not too far off in my opinion and Xilarth might be overpriced since 3 life, 3 defense (4 usually) dies really quickly. None of them have incredibly amazing powers so nothing is really game breaking that I can see. Themewise, I'm not sure why an assassin has an inherent shroud ability (I don't recall that ability from any of the DND I've played) and also the oddness of the aforementioned Cursed Blade. Figures would be nice to judge how well the powerset matches the figures.

~Dysole, hoping she's helpful

You are very helpful, thank you.

Cursed blade. It is called cursed blade because it's not reliable. The card originally just had 6 attack, but I felt that is was too strong for what I wanted it to be.

Guard of the Drow. I knew I needed to change the wording, but I wasn't sure how exactly. "ignore rather than block" sounds better, thank you. If you have any suggestions about how I could help to define "moving closer", that would be great. I'm not sure how to word it in such a way, that they are prevented from moving away from the figure they are supposed to be defending with the ability. Maybe just place Glaurad a set number of spaces away, but then what if he is already closer than that?

Shroud of Darkness. I wanted a figure that makes the Deepwrym Drow viable without Peloth blowing them up. Would using "When defending against an attack", negate the Hide in Darkness ability? The figure looks like they could be an assassin. I also thought that an assassin would probably not object to something that casts darkness around them, because it would make there job easier if the target can't see.

Assassinate. "not engaged with Xilarth at the beginning of its turn" is just "First Assault" worded differently. The idea was that he gets a buff if the target isn't engaged with anyone at all, prior to Xilarth engaging them. I hoped it was thematic for an assassin. I think I should probably reduce the required roll down to 11, to give it a 50% chance.

[Lazy Orang]

1) You could probably sell the theme of Cursed Blade easier if you added something like him receiving a wound on a low roll. You could then even make it a may and a tactical decision when to use it, a bit like Stinger Drain.
2) One thing worth noting with Shroud of Darkness is that, if any Drow are given an equivalent to Lurking Ambush on Othkurik, or anything like that, the difference between your wording and Dysole's would be significant. Also, thematically, is he only casting shadows around areas the Drow are, or the entire area? Because if the latter it seems weird that only Drow are affected (and honestly, he'd still get soft synergy with them even if everyone was thanks to Hide in Darkness).
3) I actually feel Assassinate is too unlikely - it requires setup, you'd need to break engagement (on a 3 life figure who's providing an aura!) to ever use it again, and it only has a 35% chance of triggering? Honestly, that kind of sucks. I think that the requirements to trigger it are enough to keep it in check, and would suggest making it automatic rather than requiring a roll.

~ Lazy Orang, hoping she was helpful as well.

[William099]

Well in dnd a cursed magical weapon has a percent chance its enhancements don't work, which is basically what this design is capturing.

[Scytale]

In general I disagree with the direction you're going with the Drow. Pelloth set a pretty solid precedent for how Drow work together in D&D: in an ugly way. There are many factions which rely on boosting synergies; the best thing about the Drow in D&D is that they are not like the others, IMO. The drow faction could really use some expansion, but I don't really want them to end up like all the other factions.

In both cases the stats are pretty good, both left-side and right-side, in terms of playability and theme. Glaurad is probably a bit too cheap for all his utility, though Xilarth may be costed ok.

Glaurad
Guard of the Drow is much too complex for what you get. Too many levels of different effects for something that should be simple. It would be a much cleaner power if it had a single effect. Additionally, as people noted, there is no concept of "moving closer" in Heroscape. It could be done with enough wording, probably, but the power would need to be one that really deserves such treatment. I don't see this at that level. I'd be happier with the teleport result you have for the final one, but I don't think you should bother with the height restriction.

Xilarth
Shroud of Darkness is a cool, thematic ability, but it may have some serious rules problem. As an Editor it scares me. I suppose if it was limited to only during the attack phase (when defending), or when it is not your turn it may work. At the very least, allowing it during the movement phase allows the player to "overwrite" lava tiles with shadow. Unlike some other commenters, I like Assassinate. It takes some effort and won't happen often, but it's a pretty good strike when it does. You wouldn't want to put many order markers on Xilarth anyway, just the occasional assassination shot.

[obfuscatedhippo]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Xilarth
Shroud of Darkness is a cool, thematic ability, but it may have some serious rules problem. As an Editor it scares me. I suppose if it was limited to only during the attack phase (when defending), or when it is not your turn it may work. At the very least, allowing it during the movement phase allows the player to "overwrite" lava tiles with shadow. Unlike some other commenters, I like Assassinate. It takes some effort and won't happen often, but it's a pretty good strike when it does. You wouldn't want to put many order markers on Xilarth anyway, just the occasional assassination shot.

Wow, didn't even think of that! Brilliant insight. We have a custom that has a similar power .. not the intent of the wording but I can see how it could be read that way.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo

Wow, didn't even think of that! Brilliant insight. We have a custom that has a similar power .. not the intent of the wording but I can see how it could be read that way.

Heroscape tiles only have one type. There is no such thing as "Shadow and Road," for example. So if you turn a Molten Lava tile into Shadow, it is only Shadow.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

1) You could probably sell the theme of Cursed Blade easier if you added something like him receiving a wound on a low roll. You could then even make it a may and a tactical decision when to use it, a bit like Stinger Drain.

Maybe. William099 pointed out one reason I am against that though.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

2) One thing worth noting with Shroud of Darkness is that, if any Drow are given an equivalent to Lurking Ambush on Othkurik, or anything like that, the difference between your wording and Dysole's would be significant. Also, thematically, is he only casting shadows around areas the Drow are, or the entire area? Because if the latter it seems weird that only Drow are affected (and honestly, he'd still get soft synergy with them even if everyone was thanks to Hide in Darkness).

I felt it would be too powerful if it affected all units, because he's essentially Realin in any army that isn't Drow. As for an ability like Othurik's, considering the scarcity of Drow figures, I'm not sure how likely that is. It is something to keep in mind though.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

3) I actually feel Assassinate is too unlikely - it requires setup, you'd need to break engagement (on a 3 life figure who's providing an aura!) to ever use it again, and it only has a 35% chance of triggering? Honestly, that kind of sucks. I think that the requirements to trigger it are enough to keep it in check, and would suggest making it automatic rather than requiring a roll.

Yes, I was thinking it should be made a 50% chance, however, if the consensus is that making it automatic wouldn't increase the cost of the figure, I wouldn't be against it. I refer to Scytale's comment about Assassinate, about how it's more something you do occasionally, not something that's really meant to 100% reliable. Again, I do think that it should be increased to a 50% chance though.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

~ Lazy Orang, hoping she was helpful as well.

Yes you were. I love getting feedback.

Originally Posted by Scytale

In general I disagree with the direction you're going with the Drow. Pelloth set a pretty solid precedent for how Drow work together in D&D: in an ugly way. There are many factions which rely on boosting synergies; the best thing about the Drow in D&D is that they are not like the others, IMO. The drow faction could really use some expansion, but I don't really want them to end up like all the other factions.

Alright. I see what you're saying, you want them to keep the theme they already have, and I don't really disagree, but one of my goals was to make the deepwrym more viable. The best way to do that, in my eyes, was to make the abilities they already had, more useful. Shroud of darkness was tailor made for them.

Originally Posted by Scytale

In both cases the stats are pretty good, both left-side and right-side, in terms of playability and theme. Glaurad is probably a bit too cheap for all his utility, though Xilarth may be costed ok.

Points are always something I'm unsure of.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Glaurad
Guard of the Drow is much too complex for what you get. Too many levels of different effects for something that should be simple. It would be a much cleaner power if it had a single effect. Additionally, as people noted, there is no concept of "moving closer" in Heroscape. It could be done with enough wording, probably, but the power would need to be one that really deserves such treatment. I don't see this at that level. I'd be happier with the teleport result you have for the final one, but I don't think you should bother with the height restriction.

If I changed the "move closer" parts to just "place Glaurad adjacent to the affected figure" with no height restriction, would that fix the major issues you have with it?

Originally Posted by Scytale

Xilarth
Shroud of Darkness is a cool, thematic ability, but it may have some serious rules problem. As an Editor it scares me. I suppose if it was limited to only during the attack phase (when defending), or when it is not your turn it may work. At the very least, allowing it during the movement phase allows the player to "overwrite" lava tiles with shadow. Unlike some other commenters, I like Assassinate. It takes some effort and won't happen often, but it's a pretty good strike when it does. You wouldn't want to put many order markers on Xilarth anyway, just the occasional assassination shot.

I specifcally added the "does not affect figures while they are moving" part so that it couldn't overwrite molten lava. I think that causing it to only affect figures when attacking/defending would still do what I wanted it to do.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Alright. I see what you're saying, you want them to keep the theme they already have, and I don't really disagree, but one of my goals was to make the deepwrym more viable. The best way to do that, in my eyes, was to make the abilities they already had, more useful. Shroud of darkness was tailor made for them.

Sure, and I appreciate the desire to make the Deepwyrm more viable, but I believe it's possible to make them more viable without going in the normal cheerleader direction. I feel it makes them lose their uniqueness.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

If I changed the "move closer" parts to just "place Glaurad adjacent to the affected figure" with no height restriction, would that fix the major issues you have with it?

It takes care of my rules-related concerns, yes.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I specifcally added the "does not affect figures while they are moving" part so that it couldn't overwrite molten lava. I think that causing it to only affect figures when attacking/defending would still do what I wanted it to do.

I don't know if it's worth adding it for when the figures are attacking, and it add a ton more potential corner cases to consider. If you do that make it for normal attacks only. Limiting it to defending is the simple, easy route.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Sure, and I appreciate the desire to make the Deepwyrm more viable, but I believe it's possible to make them more viable without going in the normal cheerleader direction. I feel it makes them lose their uniqueness.

I want to make them viable in way that doesn't put the spotlight on another figure. Pelloth's ability makes the Drow viable in a way, but it puts Pelloth in the spotlight. The great thing about a cheerleader, is that the figures getting buffed, are still the figures that stand out, even if the only reason they stand out, is because of the cheerleader. What if, Xilarth could add 6 to any d20 roll on any other figure within 6 spaces, With the requirement that you roll the d20, and an 8 or less inflicts 1 wound on Xilarth? If I went that route, I would increase his life to 5.

Originally Posted by Scytale

It takes care of my rules-related concerns, yes.

I'll think about ways to make him fit the drow theme a bit more. I'll post an updated card image in here once I've thought them up.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I don't know if it's worth adding it for when the figures are attacking, and it add a ton more potential corner cases to consider. If you do that make it for normal attacks only. Limiting it to defending is the simple, easy route.

If Shroud of Darkness were to stay, and I don't do what I talked about above, I'm fine with it only affecting figures that are defending as long as that still triggers "lurk in darkness"

EDIT:
Alright, I don't believe in double posting, at least when I can help it.

In an attempt to make them fit the Drow theme better, while still doing the things I wanted them to do, I present...

Xilarth reworked

Now he has an ability that really fits the Drow theme, but he still has Shroud of Darkness.


Glaurad reworked

Should Cursed Blade go back to "all skulls count for 1 additional hit"? I thought the potential for 8 attack when he has 1 life left might be too powerful.