Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

Cleon · #1 October 15th, 2018, 07:00 PM

(Updating...)

Cleon's Unit Tier List

10:

1. Deathreavers
2. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
3. Major Q9
4. Isamu
5. Marro Warriors
6. Fen Hydra

9:

7. Marcu Esenwein
8. Sir Gilbert
9. 4th Massachusetts Line
10. Nilfheim
11. Me-Burq-Sa
12. Knights of Weston
13. Heavy Gruts
14. Grimnak
15. Krav Maga Agents
16. Major Q10
17. Kaemon Awa
18. 10th Regiment of Foot
19. Marro Stingers
20. Blastatrons
21. Gladiatrons
22. Phantom Knights
23. Greenscale Warriors
24. Braxas
25. Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider

8:

26. The Axegrinders of Burning Forge
27. Alastair MacDirk
28. Marcus Decimus Gallus
29. Mogrimm Forgehammer
30. Airborne Elite
31. Black Wyrmling
32. Cyprien Esenwein
33. Roman Legionnaires
34. Death Chasers of Thesk
35.
36.
37.
38.
39. Laglor
40. Darrak Ambershard
41. Sonya Esenwein
42. Krug
43. Mezzodemon Warmongers
44. Zelrig
45. Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM
46. Red Wyrmling
47. Marrden Nagrubs

7:

48. Tor-Kul-Na
49. Heirloom
50. Ne-Gok-Sa
51.
52.
53.
54.
55.
56. Agent Skahen
57. Brave Arrow
58. Mohican River Tribe
59. Charos
60. Finn the Viking Champion
61.
62.
63.
64.
65.
66.
67.
68.
69.
70. Thorgrim the Viking Champion
71.
72.
73.
74.
75.
76.
77.
78.
79.
80.
81.

6:

82. Capuan Gladiators
83. Spartacus
84. Marrden Hounds
85. Venoc Vipers
86. Nakita Agents
87. Arkmer
88. Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
89. Ornak
90. Marro Drones
91. Wyvern
92.
93.
94.
95.
96.
97.
98.
99.
100.
101.
102.
103.
104.
105.
106.
107.
108.
109.
110.
111. Shurrak
112. Tagawa Samurai
113. Kelda the Kyrie Warrior

5:

114. Otonashi
115. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM
116. Protectors of Ullar
117. Sonlen
118. Blue Wyrmling
119. Granite Guardians
120. Jorhdawn
121. Mind Flayer Mastermind
122. Kato Katsuro
123. Ana Karithon
124. Drow Chainfighter
125.
126.
127.
128.
129.
130.
131.
132.
133.
134.
135.
136.
137.
138.
139. Kozuke Samurai
140. Tul-Bak-Ra
141. Chardris
142. Deepwyrm Drow
143. Siege
144. Torin
145. Jotun
146. Deathwalker 8000
147. Air Elemental (move up)

4:

148. Ashigaru Yari
149. Zettian Guards
150. Retiarius
151. Deathstalkers
152. Sir Dupuis
153. Master of the Hunt
154. Wo-Sa-Ga
155. Dumutef Guard
156. Armoc Vipers
157. Parmenio
158. Warden 816
159. Deathwalker 9000
160. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
161. Kumiko
162. Morsbane
163. Earth Elemental
164. Death Knights of Valkrill
165. Sujoah
166. Evar Scarcarver
167. Elite Onyx Vipers
168. Emirroon
169. Wolves of Badru
170. Agent Carr
171. Sharwin Wildborn
172. Mika Connour
173. Iskra Esenwein
174. Dzu-Teh

3:

175. Gorillinators
176. Dund
177. Werewolf Lord
178. Rechets of Bogdan
179. Erevan Sunshadow
180. Marro Hive
181. Shaolin Monks
182. Runa
183. Sudema
184. Master Win Chiu Woo
185. Greater Ice Elemental
186. Kee-Mo-Shi
187. Shades of Bleakwoode
188. Sahuagin Raider
189. Acolarh
190. Khosumet the Darklord

2:

191. Templar Cavalry
192. The Einar Imperium
193. Empress Kiova
194. Marro Drudge
195. Brandis Skyhunter
196. Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
197. Roman Archers
198. Gurei-Oni
199. Deadeye Dan
200. Major X17
201. Moriko
202. Feral Troll

1:

203. Grok Riders
204. Shiori
205. Obsidian Guards
206. Pelloth
207. Deathwalker 7000
208. Hatamoto Taro

10:
High - Deathreavers, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
Mid - Isamu, Major Q9, Marro Warriors
Low - Fen Hydra

9:
High - Marcu Esenwein, Me-Burq-Sa, Nilfheim, Sir Gilbert, 4th Massachusetts Line
Mid - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts, Kaemon Awa, Knights of Weston, Krav Maga Agents, Major Q10, Marro Stingers, 10th Regiment of Foot
Low - Blastatrons, Braxas, Gladiatrons, Greenscales, Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider, Phantom Knights

8:
High - Airborne Elite, Alastair MacDirk, The Axegrinders of Burning Forge, Black Wyrmling, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Mogrimm Forgehammer
Mid - Cyprien Esenwein, Death Chasers of Thesk, Eldgrim the Viking Champion, Eltahale, Fire Elemental, Laglor, Roman Legionnaires, Zetacron
Low - Darrak Ambershard, Krug, Marrden Nagrubs, Mezzodemon Warmongers, Red Wyrmling, Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM, Sonya Esenwein, Zelrig

7:
High - Agent Skahen, Arrow Gruts, Blade Gruts, Brave Arrow, Charos, Goblin Cutters, Heirloom, Marro Dividers, Mohican River Tribe, Ne-Gok-Sa, Swog Rider, Tor-Kul-Na
Mid - Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior, Finn the Viking Champion, Frost Giant of Morh, Minions of Utgar, Moltenclaw, Sacred Band, Samuel Brown, Warforged Soldiers
Low - Ashigaru Harquebus, Crixus, Migol Ironwill, Mimring, Ogre Pulverizer, Sentinels of Jandar, Sir Hawthorne, Sgt. Drake Alexander RotV, Syvarris, Thorgrim the Viking Champion, Venoc Warlord, White Wyrmling

6:
High - Arkmer, Capuan Gladiators, Marrden Hounds, Marro Drones, Nakita Agents, Ornak, Spartacus, Taelord the Kyrie Warrior, Venoc Vipers, Wyvern
Mid - Brunak, Fyorlag Spiders, Guilty McCreech, MacDirk Warriors, Microcorp Agents, Ogre Warhulk, Omnicron Snipers, Othkurik the Black Dragon, Theracus, Tornak, Valguard, Warriors of Ashra
Low - Aubrien Archers, Concan the Kyrie Warrior, Horned Skull Brutes, Kelda the Kyrie Warrior, Omnicron Repulsors, Rhogar Dragonspine, Shurrak, Su-Bak-Na, Tagawa Samurai, Tandros Kreel, Tarn Viking Warriors, Zombies of Morindan

5:
High - Ana Karithon, Blue Wyrmling, Drow Chainfighter, Granite Guardians, Jorhdawn, Kato Katsuro, Mind Flayer Mastermind, Otonashi, Protectors of Ullar, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM, Sonlen
Mid - Anubian Wolves, Estivara, Ice Troll Berserker, Iron Golem, Izumi Samurai, James Murphy, Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan, Kurrok the Elementalist, Kyntela Gwyn, Quasatch Hunters, Sir Denrick, Tagawa Samurai Archers, Ulginesh, Water Elemental
Low - Air Elemental, Chardris, Deathwalker 8000, Deepwyrm Drow, Jotun, Kozuke Samurai, Siege, Torin, Tul-Bak-Ra

4:
High - Ashigaru Yari, Deathstalkers, Master of the Hunt, Retiarius, Sir Dupuis, Wo-Sa-Ga, Zettian Guards
Mid - Armoc Vipers, Death Knights of Valkrill, Deathwalker 9000, Dumutef Guard, Earth Elemental, Kumiko, Morsbane, Ninjas of the Northern Wind, Parmenio, Warden 816
Low - Agent Carr, Dzu-Teh, Elite Onyx Vipers, Emirroon, Evar Scarcarver, Iskra Esenwein, Mika Connour, Sharwin Wildborn, Sujoah, Wolves of Badru

3:
High - Dund, Erevan Sunshadow, Gorillinators, Rechets of Bogdan, Werewolf Lord
Mid - Greater Ice Elemental, Kee-Mo-Shi, Marro Hive, Master Win Chiu Woo, Runa, Shaolin Monks, Sudema
Low - Acolarh, Khosumet the Darklord, Sahuagin Raider, Shades of Bleakwoode

2:
High - Brandis Skyhunter, The Einar Imperium, Empress Kiova, Marro Drudge, Templar Cavalry
Mid - Deadeye Dan, Gurei-Oni, Roman Archers, Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
Low - Feral Troll, Major X17, Moriko

1:
High - Grok Riders
Mid - Deathwalker 7000, Obsidian Guards, Pelloth, Shiori
Low - Hatamoto Taro

Cleon · #2 October 15th, 2018, 07:02 PM

Previous Lists:

Version 2: (11/26/18 )

Spoiler Alert!

Version 1: (10/15/18 )

Spoiler Alert!

vegietarian18 · #3 October 16th, 2018, 10:59 AM

Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.

Cleon · #4 October 16th, 2018, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.

I have pretty big worriment when it comes to Marrden Hounds. I agree they can be pretty strong and do nice damage, when they fit into the right time and place. But they just have several things that are large hindrances I can't ignore:

-They are very map dependent. Double-spaced squads run into issues in getting into ideal positions often, and Hounds reeeally want to get powerful engagement spots with as many units as you can.
-Their ability doesn't work against soulborgs. In a metagame where so many of the top tier and winning armies contain soulborgs (rats especially, trons, Q's. And more lower stuff you'll see occasionally that is still decent like Omnicrons), not having your ability against them is a pretty big problem. That's why I really can't rate Cyprien higher than he is, despite him being so strong in many matchups.
-They're decently luck dependent. Their movement ability doesn't really help them, it's really just a setback ability. 8 movement is the norm for them, which is the usual for a two spaced squad (either 7 or

, and really Wild Pack Movement just means sometimes they can't move much, which is bad. If it included something like "if you roll 15+, add 9 to their movement" or "if you roll a 19 or 20, add 11 to their movement" then it would be an interesting ability that could help you out. But as it is, it's really just "you have 8 move but a third of the time you can't move much."

That being said they're not bad, I put them as a high Tier-5. I'm not that opposed to bumping them up to Tier 6. But I don't think they should be much higher than that, they have too many issues.

Yeah Warriors of Ashra I was going back and forth between Tier 5 and 6. They're probably 6. WoA+PKs or WoA+Q9 or WoA+Range-Counter are pretty strong armies. They also are very splashable. I remember Jexik splashed them for Day 2 with his Greenscale+Nilf+Raelin army one year. That was cool.

It's interesting how you feel about the Heavies. I always give Knights the edge in my mind with their base 4 defense, that they have that no matter what or where they are on the map. I feel Heavies are a bit more map dependent, or map-area dependent I guess. But Heavies have their advantages as well. Both are really great of course. I'll see if others chime in

OEAO · #5 October 16th, 2018, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Nice list!

I'm not sure I agree with Hydra as 9.5, he's certainly good but I don't think distinctively better than 4th Mass or Nilfheim or any of the other 9s.

Also at this point I feel fairly confident in saying that Heavy Gruts are better in the meta than Knights of Weston; better pairing with Raelin and Chomp and Disengage have more utility than +1 defense and Jandar's Dispatch.

Warriors of Ashra and Marrden Hounds feel really low at Tier 5.

Beyond that it's kind of nitpicking. And even this is kind of nitpicking lol. I like the Tier ranking from 10-1 though, the cutoffs feel more natural than the letter grades.

I have pretty big worriment when it comes to Marrden Hounds. I agree they can be pretty strong and do nice damage, when they fit into the right time and place. But they just have several things that are large hindrances I can't ignore:

-They are very map dependent. Double-spaced squads run into issues in getting into ideal positions often, and Hounds reeeally want to get powerful engagement spots with as many units as you can.
-Their ability doesn't work against soulborgs. In a metagame where so many of the top tier and winning armies contain soulborgs (rats especially, trons, Q's. And more lower stuff you'll see occasionally that is still decent like Omnicrons), not having your ability against them is a pretty big problem. That's why I really can't rate Cyprien higher than he is, despite him being so strong in many matchups.
-They're decently luck dependent. Their movement ability doesn't really help them, it's really just a setback ability. 8 movement is the norm for them, which is the usual for a two spaced squad (either 7 or

, and really Wild Pack Movement just means sometimes they can't move much, which is bad. If it included something like "if you roll 15+, add 9 to their movement" or "if you roll a 19 or 20, add 11 to their movement" then it would be an interesting ability that could help you out. But as it is, it's really just "you have 8 move but a third of the time you can't move much."

That being said they're not bad, I put them as a high Tier-5. I'm not that opposed to bumping them up to Tier 6. But I don't think they should be much higher than that, they have too many issues.

Yeah Warriors of Ashra I was going back and forth between Tier 5 and 6. They're probably 6. WoA+PKs or WoA+Q9 or WoA+Range-Counter are pretty strong armies. They also are very splashable. I remember Jexik splashed them for Day 2 with his Greenscale+Nilf+Raelin army one year. That was cool.

It's interesting how you feel about the Heavies. I always give Knights the edge in my mind with their base 4 defense, that they have that no matter what or where they are on the map. I feel Heavies are a bit more map dependent, or map-area dependent I guess. But Heavies have their advantages as well. Both are really great of course. I'll see if others chime in

Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.

I don't see Soulborgs as a problem anymore. Trons have all but disappeared. Rats and Q9 you may hit once in a tourney, none of the top players are really running them so you don't have to worry about them at the top tables. Q10 is fine, but he's overrated (as is Vydar as a whole with the exception of Q9 and Krav.) I wouldn't worry about potentially hitting Omnicrons, it's probably still a 50/50 matchup for Hounds (I hear 1 or 2v5s are bad odds.)

Cleon · #6 October 16th, 2018, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Do I need to say how I feel about Heavies?

Also, nice list! Obviously I disagree with about 1/4 of your rankings but to each their own.

Ayeeee 3/4 agreement I'd say is pretty good.

Always happy to debate and discuss with ya (or anyone) too, man.

Dysole · #7 October 16th, 2018, 04:05 PM

Initial glance has units I think are too high or too low, but I very much like the system. I'll be back for more later with my thoughts.

~Dysole, with opinions

Dad_Scaper · #8 October 16th, 2018, 11:43 AM

I agree with vegie that this format is excellent. SP's original listing, using the grades, was deliberately whimsical, and I think this tier structure is better suited to serious discussion.

I'd like to see the whole 9.5 tier removed, because it follows right on the heels of your presentation about this new way you're going to do things, and I also think (as vegie also suggests) you could safely put those units in Tier 9. As I understand your formula for rating units.

The order looks good to me. At the top, which is the only place I think precise placement is interesting, I'd flip the Hydra and Marcu, and I'd also drop Gilbert down some distance. He's great but I don't see why he should outstrip the Knights by a couple places, and I reject the idea that either belongs ahead of the Krav.

I'm also a fan of Eltahale, who you say you're not comfortable assessing, but I don't think of myself as a great player who should be throwing his weight around in these conversations. So that's my

.

Also, I can't believe you numbered that whole list manually. Heaven help you when you want to change something, or you realize you left out some unit from Tier 8. Or whatever.

Thanks for sharing, this is very interesting.

Cleon · #9 October 16th, 2018, 04:03 PM

As far as my thoughts on the Hydra goes, the more I play/see games with it, the more I conclude it's just an incredibly strong unit no matter how you look at it. Which is basically the criteria for being a 10.

It's not that expensive, very strong against melee, and still strong against a lot of range, basically no bad matchups. I don't think it's very map dependent, Reach takes care of so many spots on maps. And on the flipside, running it on Road/Castle maps can be crazy good. You can also choose to have just one, or multiple. Both are powerful and spark interesting potential builds. Nasty with rats or PK's, and perfectly fine without them and in other builds.

With other top-Tier-9 units like 4th or Krav or Knights, they do have bad matchups you run into. 4th doesn't like Q9 or Q10, also Zelrig can be a bit worrisome, Krav don't like PK's which are common in competitive play now, Knights still can run into 10th and Hydras, also Charos with or without Greenscales can be annoying for them too. But the Hydra is kinda awesome no matter what.

Bottom line is, they're only 120pt. and have a large tendency to kill way more than their points, and at the same time I think are minimally chance-dependent (regarding matchups or maps). That to me is a top echelon unit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I agree with vegie that this format is excellent. SP's original listing, using the grades, was deliberately whimsical, and I think this tier structure is better suited to serious discussion.

I'd like to see the whole 9.5 tier removed, because it follows right on the heels of your presentation about this new way you're going to do things, and I also think (as vegie also suggests) you could safely put those units in Tier 9. As I understand your formula for rating units.

The order looks good to me. At the top, which is the only place I think precise placement is interesting, I'd flip the Hydra and Marcu, and I'd also drop Gilbert down some distance. He's great but I don't see why he should outstrip the Knights by a couple places, and I reject the idea that either belongs ahead of the Krav.

I'm also a fan of Eltahale, who you say you're not comfortable assessing, but I don't think of myself as a great player who should be throwing his weight around in these conversations. So that's my

.

Also, I can't believe you numbered that whole list manually. Heaven help you when you want to change something, or you realize you left out some unit from Tier 8. Or whatever.

Thanks for sharing, this is very interesting.

Yeah, I'm going to abolish the 9.5 category and split the two like I said if I had to. I guess I was just very reluctant to add or demote a unit from the 'top echelon' of units.

Marcu's amazing because he basically nullify's the Wound glyph completely for your army, and is also a solid cleanup figure that can definitely kill more than 20pt. Can also be used as an effective unit with Ornak, too. But, he is slightly dependent on whether you're on a lava map or not. There's also the possibility the Wound glyph happens to not be in the glyph pool or tournament, too. Overall, he's amazing. But I rate him below the Hydra, and I don't think he's quite at the very top.

Gilbert I rate higher than the Knights just because I think he's that solid of a unit. He makes the Knights what they are, also works with a plethora of good Jandar figures, and is just such a solid bundle of stats and abilities for a bondable 105pt. The Knights are amazing, but I don't know, Gilbert himself just seems so good I feel that's where his power is, even though yes Gilbert+Knights is the best build for him. I dunno, kinda hard to explain, it's almost a 'it just feels right' explanation.

I remember Jexik once bumped him up to A+ in the original rankings, and I wasn't really opposed to it. Ultimately he kept him back at A but I agreed with him that Gilbert is quite strong of a hero.

Krav are amazing but PK's counter them hard, and PK's are not a unit you don't see. Even x1 squad just for the Krav I think is a good army option and will be a bit troublesome. If the PK's didn't exist I could see them a bit higher, but I like where I have them at right now.

Eltahale is a figure I'd like some insight on, yes. She's definitely good.

Yeah it took many many hours haha. But it's something I've been wanting to do for a long time and finally just buckled down and did it.

Thanks for the comments and reading it!

Dysole · #10 October 16th, 2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon

Cleon's Unit Tier List

10:

1. Deathreavers I think they're below Rae and Q as I feel I have the most answers
2. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
3. Major Q9
4. Isamu
5. Marro Warriors I think they're better than Isamu
6. Fen Hydra

9:

7. Marcu Esenwein
8. Sir Gilbert Good, but this feels a little high. I put this with the other bonders.
9. 4th Massachusetts Line
10. Nilfheim
11. Knights of Weston
12. Krav Maga Agents
13. Blastatrons
14. Gladiatrons
15. Heavy Gruts
16. Grimnak
17. Me-Burq-Sa
18. Major Q10
19. Marro Stingers
20. 10th Regiment of Foot
21. Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider Orc Raelin feels a touch too high.
22. Greenscale Warriors
23. Braxas
24. Phantom Knights I think they should swap with Orc Raelin
25. Laglor
26. Kaemon Awa

8:

27. Alastair MacDirk
28. Marcus Decimus Gallus
29. Mogrimm Forgehammer The relative value of these three change a lot with who they're bonding with
30. Black Wyrmling
31. Zetacron
32. Airborne Elite
33. Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM
34. Axegrinders of the Burning Forge
35. Darrak Ambershard A smidge too high
36. Roman Legionnaires
37. Zelrig
38. Agent Skahen
39. Deathchasers of Thesk Honestly, I think they belong a tier up
40. Cyprien Esenwein
41. Krug
42. Red Wyrmling
43. Eltahale
44. Marrden Nagrubs They're essential for a hivelord build, but I think they're worse than Stompy
45. Eldgrim the Viking Champion

7:

46. Ne-Gok-Sa This feels way too low for as tanky he can be
47. Swog Rider
48. Marro Dividers A bit too high. Getting key divides can really shift things
49. Samuel Brown Solid, but I think a bit too high
50. Tor-Kul-Na
51. Minions of Utgar
52. Sentinels of Jandar
53. Finn the Viking Champion
54. Arrow Gruts
55. Heirloom Probably should be higher. That special is good.
56. Charos
57. Sacred Band Um. wut. I mean they don't suck, but this feels a bit too high.
58. Blade Gruts
59. Warforged Soldiers
60. Goblin Cutters
61. Mezzodemon Warmongers Both of these squads are better than several you've put on here. They can be absolutely brutal against armies lacking specials
62. Sgt. Drake Alexander RotV
63. Thorgrim the Viking Champion I'd swap him and Hawthorne
64. Brave Arrow
65. Mohicans of the River Tribe
66. Migol Ironwill
67. Fire Elemental
68. Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
69. Sir Hawthorne
70. Ogre Pulverizer
71. Sonya Esenwein Probably should be a tier down
72. White Wyrmling
73. Mimring

6:

74. Microcorp Agents
75. Nakita Agents
76. Moltenclaw Should be a tier up
77. Venoc Vipers
78. Venoc Warlord
79. Marro Drones
80. Frost Giant of Morh Arguably should be a tier up.
81. Syvarris Also tier up. 9 range and double attack.
82. Ornak
83. Crixus
84. Capuan Gladiators
85. Spartacus
86. Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
87. Su-Bak-Na
88. Iron Golem Tier down. Big attack but really nothing else.
89. Brunak
90. Omnicron Snipers
91. Omnicron Repulsors
92. MacDirk Warriors
93. Ashigaru Harquebus
94. Valguard This squad and this hero are massively underrated in my opinion.
95. Arkmer
96. Ogre Warhulk
97. Protectors of Ullar
98. Guilty McCreech
99. Concan the Kyrie Warrior
100. Tornak Also a bit underrated. Up with gladiators.
101. Othkurik the Black Dragon
102. Shurrak
103. Rhogar Dragonspine
104. Horned Skull Brutes I'd move them ahead of the heroes at least.
105. Blue Wyrmling I'm always disappointed.
106. Wyvern
107. Zombies of Morindan I'd move them up in this tier at least.

5:

108. Warriors of Ashra Move it up
109. Marrden Hounds Figure limits make them much better as opposed to hex limits
110. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM Should be further down
111. Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
112. Deathwalker 8000
113. Aubrian Aubrien Archers
114. Fyorlag Spiders
115. Tarn Viking Warriors
116. Kyntella Gwyn
117. Jorhdawn
118. Chardris
119. Ulginesh
120. Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
121. James Murphy I personally think Murphy is better than Shotgun
122. Tagawa Samurai I'd put them ahead of the elves
123. Deathwalker 9000
124. Anubian Wolves
125. Sir Denrick
126. Theracus
127. Kato Katsuro
128. Kurrok the Elementalist Birth of these should arguably be in the tier above or at least mixed with the elves
129. Otonashi Honestly, she's a lot better in any format where you play an opponent army, but this still feels low
130. Ice Troll Berserker
131. Quasatch Hunters
132. Sonlen
133. Retarius Too high.
134. Torin
135. Granite Guardians Should be higher
136. Tul-Bak-Ra
137. Izumi Samurai
138. Master of the Hunt
139. Jotun
140. Siege
141. Deepwyrm Drow
142. Sir Dupuis
143. Kozuke Samurai I think they're even with Izumi
144. Tandros Kreel Kreeloy Jenkins should be higher. Dude's a tank.
145. Wo-Sa-Ga
146. Tagawa Samurai Archers
147. Mindflayer Mastermind This is fine. I just remember being very disappointed with my MFM on fire isles. I just had to bring it up.
148. Water Elemental

4:

149. Armoc Vipers
150. Parmenio
151. Zettian Guards
152. Ana Karithon
153. Ashigaru Yari
154. Deathstalkers Like hounds, go up a tier with figure limits
155. Elite Onyx Vipers
156. Dumutef Guard
157. Dzu-Teh
158. Air Elemental
159. Iskra Esenwein
160. Gurei-Oni
161. Death Knights of Valkrill
162. Warden 816
163. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
164. Earth Elemental
165. Agent Carr
166. Morsbane Should be higher
167. Sharwin Wildborn
168. Wolves of Badru
169. Drow Chainfighter Also most disappointing 8 when I had a DC on shadow next to lava. Should be up a tier.
170. Estivara
171. Mika Connour

3:

172. Werewolf Lord
173. Marro Hive I think it should be up higher, especially in games that can go to time.
174. Sujoah
175. Sudema Tier 10. Best figure in the game. :P
176. Runa the Kyrie Warrior
177. Gorillinators Yes specials wreck them, but play them against something without specials and they can be brutal. Up a tier
178. Acolarh
179. Retchets of Bogdan
180. Kumiko
181. Shaolin Monks
182. Evar Scarcarver
183. Greater Ice Elemental
184. Kee-Mo-Shi
185. Khosumet the Darklord Down a tier. Just having the most obviously false bio in the game should do that.
186. Emirroon
187. Shades of Bleakewoode
188. Dund Dünd
189. Sahuagin Raider
190. Master Win Chiu Woo

2:

191. Marro Drudge
192. The Einar Imperium
193. Major X17
194. Deadeye Dan
195. Templar Cavalry
196. Roman Archers
197. Empress Kiova
198. Erevan Sunshadow
199. Moriko
200. Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
201. Feral Troll

1:

202. Deathwalker 7000
203. Grok Riders Worst common squad in the game.
204. Brandis Skyhunter Needs to be up a tier. Not good, but has range and at least one ability that comes into play often.
205. Shiori
206. Obsidian Guards
207. Pelloth
208. Hatamoto Taro

Honestly Hatamoto Taro should probably be in a Tier 0 of his own....but I didn't want to make another tier and felt like being nice to him.

Marvel:

1. Thanos - 10
2. Captain America - 10
3. Silver Surfer - 9
4. Incredible Hulk - 8
5. Abomination - 7 Worse Hulk and with no range.
6. Venom - 6
7. Spider-Man - 6 Spider sense is so annoying
8. Iron Man - 5 Double attack is good
9. Doctor Doom - 4
10. Redskull - 3

^This Marvel list should be read as listed in order from what I think are the strongest to weakest Marvel units and, if they are allowed in competitive play, the number given to them is the respective Tier I think they'd fall in.:

-Mezzodemon Warmongers - I don't have much experience with Mezzo's at all, I just haven't been matched up against them in tournament like at all, and I don't play them very often. I'd think they were just okay but they seem to perform really well the past several years and I obviously take that into account. I put them as a 7, wasn't sure Specials hurt them a fair bit, but man they can hold a position if you don't have them.
-Eltahale - Another unit I just have very little tournament experience with/against. I know a lot of people like her and I've heard she's like a 'mini-Nilfheim'. I ranked her as a lower 8, but could easily be higher, I'm not sure. That's about right. I've never been disappointed with her.
-Samuel Brown - I actually have never played a game with this unit haha, he was released later after the game died. Obviously he's good. I know dok has had a lot of success with him in and out of 4th Mass builds. I went with a high 7. He's very useful, but that feels high
-Warforged Soldiers - Not much tournament experience with these guys either, I know they've done pretty well at events. I know Warforged+Raelin+Krav is strong so I couldn't put them lower than a 7. But again, I'm a little lost. Warforged especially with Raelin tend to be really good against what you're fighting or really bad against it.
-Moltenclaw - I think he has his flaws but he has some potential to be very strong on certain lava maps (I'm always thinking about him when I build those). He also works with Greenscales which is a pretty unexplored army build; was is Arrow Grut or Vegie who did well with that build once, or maybe someone else I'm not sure. Anyways, put him as a high 6 but I'm not sure, could be a 7. Molty is good. Single space and a very flexible special work really well.
-Zombies of Morindan - Zombies are a unit I haven't played in a long long time and haven't seen them like at all in tournaments for like years, yet they're not a bad unit. The more I look at them the more I think they're pretty good, I originally had them at a 5 but bumped them up to 6 (also was considering moving Ashra up to 6. Let me know what ya think). I don't know, they could even be a low 7, haven't seen them in a while. I'm very lost on these guys. Zombies aren't amazing, but they're a good solid unit. I think they're comparable to Ashra, but unlike Ashra if you commit to zombies you gotta commit all the way
-Several D&D-scape heroes that are a low-5 or lower - There's a lot of not so great heroes that came from the D&D waves that you don't see in competitive play, and that I have little experience with or results-knowledge of. I tried my best to rate them accurately, I like how it turned out but I definitely could be missing something.

Other Units that were difficult to rate:

-Gladiators - the Gladiators are very hard to rate. The 500pt. Steamroller is very matchup dependent but can be very good. It heavily depends on the point restriction of a tournament to rate them. In a 400pt.-490pt. environment, they really struggle to make a good army. They'd maybe be a Tier-5 or lower. In a 500pt.-540pt. tournament, you use the Steamroller (+potential filler) and it's about and high Tier-6. And in a 550pt.+ event, they become really strong because you can start adding things like MW or a 4th Capuan Squad or Krav even, and then they'd be at least a high Tier-7 or probably a Tier 8 unit. I depends entirely on the point limit of the tournament. I went with a high 6, but it obviously changes a lot. This sound accurate to me.
-Trons - Trons are very good units but do depend on the figure/hex limit of the tournament. With lower start zone limitation tournaments, basically when you can't field more than 4 squads total, they're definitely not as strong. But when you have 20+ hexes to work with, they're really good. I have a huge worry of a certain build style for them to face (rats+Braxas, rats+very strong hero like Nilf or Zelrig), but I can't ignore their huge tournament success from the hands of spider_poison, lonewolf, etc. and they still pull results today. In lower hex environments (when you can only field 4 squads of them total), they're still a 9 to me, or at the very least a strong 8. But in just slightly higher hex restrictions, they're very strong. Yep although playing them separately weakens their power level, but also changes the way you play them.
-Fire Elemental - This unit was a huge topic of discussion when it came out, if it was too good against melee. It still is nasty, but has such little tournament stats because not many people own a ton of Fire Elementals. I personally think it's very hard to rate high because the army has a crazy flaw regarding if Kurrok dies early. It kind of perplexes me, what do you do against AE or something? But I can't deny that how powerful it is when you don't run into that scenario and in many matchups, and that dok has had good success with the Firestorm. But I can't recall anyone else. It's difficult...I went with a 7? That feels about right. They can be very devastating.
-Ulginesh, Kato, and Kurrok - These units are absolutely necessary to use in the builds they created, they basically are the reason the build exists, but don't attack or do much themselves really. I basically just ranked them on how I felt their respective competitive army build's power is. The Elf Wizard build is about a high Tier-5 (maybe even 6 for vegie

), the Ashigaru build is about a middle Tier-5, and the mixed/other Elemental build is about a middle Tier-5 and even though the Firestorm is much higher, he's the expoitable weakness to it that really worries me, so I went with mid-5 for Kurrok. I see them about equally as they can all do powerful things.
-Marro Hive - The Hive, when it works, is a fine unit that seems to be able in competitive play. But in the typical point restrictions, I don't see a single reason to use it over just more of the common Marro squads your using for the 160pt. slot, I feel like it will rarely ever be better and will just at best be about the same strength as just more commons. It's unbelievably map dependent, there are many maps that have a spot for the Hive but the spot is atrocious and will be a nightmare to play with. I just think that's such a huge detriment and risk that I can't rank it higher. If it's 800pt. games with large start zones on maps that accommodate it, then it's a solid unit that maybe is very abuse-able. But with what typical tournaments are with this game, the Hive just doesn't work. I think it's sightly too low but agree that often it's better to just have the squads
-Master Woo and Empress Kiova - These two units are terrible and will not be best with their respective squads. If you want to win with a Monk or Imperium army, don't use these heroes, you don't have the points to afford them. Conversely, so in order to use Master Woo or Kiova, in my opinion you can't afford to use their squads either, which is hilarious. They're basically units you'll never ever play, but as stand alone heroes they're not the worst figures in the game. I wanted to rank them lower than where they are, but in armies where you're just using them as a stand alone hero without they're squads, I think you'll do better than with armies where you combine the heroes with their squads, in competitive play. Pretty funny, if you ask me. Hey I won a Gencon main event game with Kiova and EI. Stressing of which, I do need to get my game reports up.

Comments are in bold.

~Dysole, who would've done fun colors if she wasn't posting from her phone

Cleon · #11 October 17th, 2018, 02:05 AM

Thanks for the comments, Dysole.

I'll try to respond to each...

Rats: Yeah I mean rats and Raelin and Q9 are definitely the best three units in the game, I can see an argument for each of them as the best. Personally I think it's down to rats and Raelin, but Q9 is the best thing that, ya know, kills things in the game. He doesn't have any bad matchups or anything, is basically good against everything, and doesn't really care about the map. Not sure, maybe I put him under the other two because I always fear the offchance that he can whiff a big attack and you lose the 180pt.? I don't know.....he's amazing too haha. I put rats above Raelin because I think they are good in every single game, every map, and with any unit. The only time rats might have a 'bad' situation, is if you are in the rare occasion where you're up against samurai or charos and have to attack with them haha. But you should have other units in your army for the attacks (rats/Taelord is a pretty good army though). Raelin's good with every unit too, but I do feel there are some units that are too mobile or want to cover most of the map that in some cases don't want her. Also there are times where a thing like AE kills Raelin early, that doesn't ever happen with the rats. Zelrig can't wipe them all out as easily as other commons.

But yeah, Raelin's stupid good and versatile too, I'm nit picking pretty hard with it. I'm cool with her being the best as well, but I just personally think rats the tiniest bit better. It doesn't bother me at all when people say she's the best in the game though

MW: Yeah MW are damn good for 50pt. and probably the best endgame unit for the points, excluding mr. red ninja. Isamu to me just almost always kills way more than 10pt., and if he doesn't, then it's a 10pt. figure loss that you just added to your army at the end basically for free. He's basically a unit that's just "Oh, you lost the game, well see if you can still win with this annoying ninja!" and he often has a good chance in doing so. Both are like second chance wins, it's just that MW you need some points for.

Gilbert: I already wrote about Gilbert. It's hard to explain, it just feels right to put him up there. The best bonding hero imo

Nerak: I thought I may be putting Nerak a tad too high. Wasn't sure. There's really nothing bad about him, also works with not only Heavies, but also Deathchasers, Blades, and Arrow Gruts. Dok used him in addition with Spider's classic Arrow Grut army and it worked really nicely.

PK's: I'm glad you also think the PK's are great units. I think just the fact they counter Krav, 4th, and 10th so well merits them being a 9 unit. Super versatile, and are all over GenCon since their release pulling results.

Three bonding heroes: Yeah but I felt they were pretty much always great. Alastair works with Knights (and MacDirks!

) and is solid with Mass too, and honestly is pretty nice on his own. Marcus is just a bundle of good cheerleader abilities, and also a decent hero to get into the action with 6 life and the attack boost. Romans, 10th, Romans/10th, Greeks, Greeks/10th, 4th even. Mogrimm is a beast all round and very useful for the Dwarves and Romans. Probably not that bad on his own too.

Darrak: Wasn't sure, felt like him and the Axegrinders go hand and hand. Always think of him as the same power as them. Could go down I suppose.

Deathchasers: Interesting. I like them a lot but I felt the 3-squad was more of a hindrance than their 4 attack was a plus, when comparing them to the other bonding melee squads. They're great units though, I love the heroes they work with. Maybe they should be higher. Not sure about bumping them up to the next tier, though.

Nagrubs: I trust dok's opinion on TKN/grubs more than anyone's, as that's like his signature army, and not many others play it. He said he thinks grubs are probably higher than TKN, and what really makes the army shine. I put them a tier up, but near the bottom of it. TKN I put a high 7. I'm a little worried for TKN on the map dependency, he can definitely get screwed over on certain maps. Nagrubs can help you a little bit on bad maps, they're kinda like rats. Not sure if putting the Grubs in the next tier was the right call, I'll wait to see if dok can chime in on this.

Ne-Gok-Sa: Was considering 8 for him. I like him a lot, he sure is a tank. Always having the threat of Mindshackle is so nice.

Marro Dividers: On paper I would agree. They don't appear to be as strong as I put them, but they always overperform when I see them at tournaments and in my own games compared to how I think they would perform. I'm pretty convinced they're a high 7. Dividing lets them hold and conquer positions, which is so huge in Heroscape. Shout out to Raelin.

Samuel Brown: Really wasn't sure. He does give 4th Mass a special attack though. :P

Heirloom: The Ash brothers/family convinced me he's a solid unit. Maybe I should put him higher. Do you think he's a low 8?

Sacred Band: I disagree. I think you never see them because basically Romans are just better (also they're kinda more expensive figures to own), but they're actually pretty good. Bonding 4 squad with Marcus and Valguard. Can add Parmenio if you're feeling optimistic and can always use 10th and AE too. Also aren't completely secluded to discipline with Parmenio, could add some Krav...not that Parmenio's that great haha.

Cutters: ISB3 is nasty with them, I rememberFilthytheClown did very well with them before. They can be, I agree, but they are sooo bad against the SA's. Q9, Q10, Nilfheim, White Wyrmlings, Laglor, Blue Wyrmlings, and on the offchance you run into DW8K, just massacre these guys. I remember playing a game with cutters against several White Wyrmlings and I couldn't do anything. Zelrig, Mimring, and Brunak are probably worrisome too. I just feel they have too many potential figures to face that completely destroy them, the first three of which I mentioned are quite common in competitive play, and the wyrmlings aren't super rare to face. It's hard for me to justify placing them any higher with these units out there.

Mezzos: Like I said I'm lost on these guys. They could very well be higher, they're one unit I have minimum experience with, and they've had some good results in recent years.

Thorgrim: I like Thorgrim. His defense boost makes him a target, then you get his boost permanently for something (4 def Krav or MW is tasty). He's a solid hero to bond with in his own right, too, 3/4 with 4 life = not bad. I don't trust Hawthorne haha, his stab in back always freaks me out. But yeah he's solid too. Maybe I'll put him a few spots higher.

Sonya: Makes Cyprien even more brutal in his good matchups, but is almost a waste in his bad matchups. Only 45pt. though and could be a decent cleanup against scattered melee in the endgame. I think a low 7 suits her. But not completely opposed to a high 6.

Moltenclaw: Moltenclaw's cool. I think him and Mimring are pretty underrated. Greenscales make every dragon have some nice potential. I wasn't sure, will most likely move him up to where Mimring is. Maybe even higher. He was another I wanted some help ranking.

Frost Giant: Was going back and forth between 6 and 7. My cousin loves this figure and plays him every chance he gets, so I've seen him in action quite a bit. He's a solid figure that was originally overlooked.

Syvarris: I love Syvarris, ran him in teams once. 9 range is so nice. I just really worry about his 2def/4life to rank him higher. Phantom Knights exist and aren't afraid. Still, a great sharpshooter. I'll consider it.

Iron Golem: I might be overrating this figure but I just love the fact he's such a thorn for Q9, Q10, and others alike. I love adding him to armies who fear the Q's to give them something to use in my home games. He could be lower though.

Ashigaru Harquebus: I agree they're very underrated and underused. They don't need to be played with Kato. I do always worry about their base 1 defense though. Could see them as a high 6, not sure if they'll graduate to 7. Maybe.

Valguard: I agree too, again, underrated/underused. Mid 6 seems right for him.

Tornak: I agree. He's not a bad option with the melee gruts. Low 6 might be too low.

HSB: These guys on paper look pretty good but always underperform for me, and seem to for others too. Low 6 feels right.

Blue Wyrmling: Not a bad figure. All wyrmlings bond with each other so you can always splash one or two if you want to. The worst wyrmling yes, but is still usable with the others. For that, I put him with the 6's.

Zombies: Yeah I was lost on these as well. Will most likely move them up. Wanted to hear insight from you all for them.

WoA: Will do.

Marrden Hounds: See my other post.

Raelin SotM: Is never played because Raelin RotV is so much better, but I think she's pretty good in her own right. Just makes you wish you were using the OG one.

Murphy: I view them as the same power. Just gave the edge to Johnny because you can fit him in lower point slots. But I don't really care which is on top.

Tagawa: I don't disagree. Tagawa can be beasts when they get going. My dad plays them all the time they're one of his favorites.

Kurrok: Wasn't exactly sure. But the huge exploitable weakness of killing Kurrok early in Elemental builds always worries me. I'm reluctant to rank him higher.

Otonashi: I don't think Otonashi's very good but it's hard for me to rate a 10pt. figure low.

Retarius: I disagree. I think Retarius is pretty okay, just blatantly the worse option to Crixus, so he's never played. In 600pt. games you might see him partner with Crixus. I don't think that's that bad.

GG's: One of my favorite units in the game and I'm glad you want them higher. I was worried to rank them higher, trying to avoid bias in my affection for them. Not opposed to it.

Kozuke: Yeah they are probably more on the Izumi's level.

Tandros: See my other post on him. I actually don't have too many games with him, either. Not sure if he's more than a 5 though.

Mindflayer: At first I rated him a lot lower but then looked at his card again, and he's not bad. A fun figure for sure.

Deathstalkers: I was pleasantly surprised with how well you and dok did at GenCon my last year I went. They can be a nice wall for your range. Do you think I should bump them up to 5?

Morsbane: He's actually pretty good. Can be a clutch tool for matchups. I don't think he's more than a 4 though.

Question: Does morsbane's ability work after any of your turns, or just when you take a turn with Morsbane? I always thought you needed to take a turn with him, but it does just say 'the turn'. If so he probably should be higher.

Drow Chainfighter: Not sure if I'll put a single turn common hero more than a 4. But he does have good survivability. Maybe I should. I know Matthias would enjoy me putting him higher.

Hive: I already said my feelings on the Hive.....I just don't think it works nor is at all worth the risk.

Sudema: I think Sudema and Runa are pretty underrated figures

Gorillinators: Not sure I agree. Same deal as the Cutters.....but they're more than twice the cost per figure. They have their ups sometimes but it's miserable against those SA's. Still, they have synergy with good figures and are a ranged squad. I'll have to think about it.

Khosumet: LOL I remember that bio. The figure turns out to have no defensive ability and has 3def/3life hahaha. Honestly, I think they messed up and meant to add some kind of shield theme ability like Tough but forgot to. He's silly. I put him higher just because he makes the Anubians safe, and I really like the Anubians as figures. He could be lower though.

Grok Riders: I think Obsidians are worse. But yes they're horrendous.

Brandis Skyhunter: I disagree. He's just a slightly better Pelloth with one more health and 10 less points. He has an offchance of running into a flying heavy matchup, but even then I don't think he's doing much to Sentinels or Minions. His range is too short to consider him a Raelin killer, which was the intention for him. Pelloth also has an offchance of getting a shadow space map, which I was weighing when comparing the two. I think both are two of the worst figures in the game.

Abomination - I was considering putting him an 8 with Hulk, but I like the Hulk's threat of really killing pretty much anything in one hit when he's raged up. I value that a lot, and think Hulk+Kelda or Rhogar could be a nasty build. Abomination works too, but not as effective in my opinion. Still, might be a low 8. With him you get 50pt. to spare, and Marro Warriors are too sexy.

Spider-Man: Yes.

Iron Man: Yes yes.

You won an event with Kiova and IE?!

phew, that was a doozy. Alright I'm off to bed, will discuss more tomorrow.

Dysole · #12 October 17th, 2018, 02:54 AM

Real quick.

I'll defer to dok as well on the grub thing too. I'd just never heard him say so explicitly.

I've played cutters and Wyrmlings a lot. I almost never feel like I want to bring blue as compared to the others. Cutters are really good if you bring in something to kill the special attackers and given their cheapness you usually can.

You have to take a turn with Morsbane to use his power, but it can cripple some units.

I brought gnators and a bunch of 10th to a bring 2 at Gencon last year. It was pretty brutal watching people try to kill the gorillas with 10th.

And I didn't win a tournament, just a game (Round 4 of the main event when I had to beat my Templar, Raelin, 4th build with swarm Rae, EI, and Kiova; one of the most intense games I've ever played)

~Dysole, who should've been asleep long ago

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