The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

Do you have any suggestions? Disengage is not hard to incorporate into the package in either capacity (limited or full). Would lowering their base move be enough to compensate for putting Stalkers at 3 spaces as well or no?

I don't think compensation is needed. They're a 2-man squad with modest defense. Even at 3 spaces they're not safe from any counterattacks.

[Shiftrex]

Hey there, just looking for some clarification.

On the discord it was brought up that one of my abilities may need more text. Stalkers, do I need language in the ability similar to how greenscales pick a dragon king and the macdirks pick a champion that says I can only choose one hero to trigger the stalkers ability? (ref. Dragon King: You can choose only one Lizard King for all the Greenscale Warriors you control.)

Spoiler Alert!

GENERAL = ULLAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = HUNTERS
PERSONALITY = FEARSOME
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 50

STALKERS
At the beginning of the game choose an opponent's unique Hero. After that Hero takes a turn you may immediately move up to 4 Wulfing Hunters 3 spaces each.

STRIKE AND FADE
After attacking with the Wulfing Hunters, you may move any Hunters that dealt one or more wounds to an opponent's figure up to 3 spaces each.

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfing Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Hunter.

DISENGAGE
Wulfing Hunters are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

A preview. Testing on 1/17.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

Hey there, just looking for some clarification.

On the discord it was brought up that one of my abilities may need more text. Stalkers, do I need language in the ability similar to how greenscales pick a dragon king and the macdirks pick a champion that says I can only choose one hero to trigger the stalkers ability? (ref. Dragon King: You can choose only one Lizard King for all the Greenscale Warriors you control.)

Technically yes. As-is you could choose a different Unique Hero for each squad you take of Hunters. No one plays that way, though, and this is the sort of thing we clean up in Editing.

[Scytale]

Captain Xue is problematic. "Rolls attack dice" is too broad; that's including (but not really) special attacks, and worse, leaving engagement attacks. That needs to be limited to normal attacks at least.

Is Taiyangfeng supposed to be able to be used if you do not attack normally? It's not clear.

What is the unit's point cost?

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

So I have been working on the updates to Jan Sobeiski, and would like to post where I am currently at here before putting him back into the actual SoV thread for any thoughts. The biggest conceit I wasn't sure of was the buff of +2 move or +1 move, but eventually landed on +2; the +1 move often didn't feel worth the set-up in testing (you sacrifice about 12-16 hexes of movement of Knights by taking turn 1 with Jan, not to mention the opportunity cost of also not having Gilbert and a Dispatch, and often the first turn is the most important in a round once you make it out of the very early game). Otherwise I have been fairly happy with the changes made. His big strength VS Gilbert is the fact that he doesn't have to put himself in as much danger to give Knights a +1 attack buff (and has more ability to escape/is better in some endgames), but because he's squishier, otherwise requires more restrictive set-up and also costs +45 points I am not particularly worried about the power curve scaling.

Just wanted to bump this up again quickly for any final opinions before I put him back into the actual SoV Submissions thread.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by Scytale

Captain Xue is problematic. "Rolls attack dice" is too broad; that's including (but not really) special attacks, and worse, leaving engagement attacks. That needs to be limited to normal attacks at least.

Is Taiyangfeng supposed to be able to be used if you do not attack normally? It's not clear.

What is the unit's point cost?

Thanks for replying! Captain Xue's Edge. Normal attacks. Can do.

Language for Taiyangfeng was taken directly from Mok, as someone suggested:

GUNNER SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 3.
After attacking normally, Mok may attack with Gunner Special attack once for each Dwarf figure on this card. While engaged, Mok may target and attack non-adjacent figures with Gunner Special Attack. Mok cannot attack the same figure twice with Gunner Special Attack.

Tentative point cost is 125.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Language for Taiyangfeng was taken directly from Mok, as someone suggested:

Ah yeah, not some of our best work. It's fine.

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Tentative point cost is 125.

Has this not been tested? Please do not post designs to this thread that are not well-tested.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

Just wanted to bump this up again quickly for any final opinions before I put him back into the actual SoV Submissions thread.

For what it's worth (I'm no longer a judge, so these are just thoughts given from an onlooker), I don't think that the "revealed Order Marker" gimmick is quite right for him thematically. HeroScape Bonding regularly represents a heroic figure leading the charge, so if it's paying homage to the Hussite Charge from the old submission or him leading the way, then a "while Jan Sobieski is engaged" clause might be more compelling.

Forcing the choice between an OM on the hero or the squad can often cause conflict that needs to be balanced very well to be worthwhile. In knights armies, I don't think that it'd often be worth it to sacrifice OM1 on Jan, giving up 4x3 attacks and 4x4 movements, to boost them by up to 8 dice and 16 move for the remaining 2 OMs (especially in comparison to other bonding heroes they have like Gilbert, who naturally average +2 move every turn anyway). I think that the Grand Duke's Orders power will end up most interesting outside of knight armies or bonding in general as a result, since it brings something new to other armies like samurai, but that's just from theoryizing on the power.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

For what it's worth (I'm no longer a judge, so these are just thoughts given from an onlooker), I don't think that the "revealed Order Marker" gimmick is quite right for him thematically. HeroScape Bonding regularly represents a heroic figure leading the charge, so if it's paying homage to the Hussite Charge from the old submission or him leading the way, then a "while Jan Sobieski is engaged" clause might be more compelling.

Forcing the choice between an OM on the hero or the squad can often cause conflict that needs to be balanced very well to be worthwhile. In knights armies, I don't think that it'd often be worth it to sacrifice OM1 on Jan, giving up 4x3 attacks and 4x4 movements, to boost them by up to 8 dice and 16 move for the remaining 2 OMs (especially in comparison to other bonding heroes they have like Gilbert, who naturally average +2 move every turn anyway). I think that the Grand Duke's Orders power will end up most interesting outside of knight armies or bonding in general as a result, since it brings something new to other armies like samurai, but that's just from theoryizing on the power.

Mhm yeah he's not really intended to replace/be higher power level than Gilbert is, more an additional potential option with some similar and some differing roles and uses. He does also have to be at least somewhat forward on most maps to maximize use of his power with the space restrictions so I felt like it still did a good job in terms of theme.

You're also right in that he can do some neat things in other armies without bonding but I think that is a bonus rather than a negative (the most "relevant" being probably him, Raelin RotV, and a bunch of Ashigaru Yari, where bridging from 2 to 3 attack is a bigger breakpoint than 3 to 4 with Knights and you care a lot less about rushing Ashigaru into otherwise bad spots that let them get a boosted attack in, since they are 10 points a figure and highly expendable).

[Leaf_It]

I just posted Jed in the SoV submission thread, but it's looking like the current design won't work. I discussed it with Pumpkin_King, and I have a reworked design that I'm looking for feedback on.

NAME = JEDIDIAH MULRONEY
GENERAL = UTGAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = OUTLAW
PERSONALITY = RUTHLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
3 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
100 POINTS

Utgar's Black Bullet
Once per game, before rolling attack dice with Jedidiah Mulroney, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card to use Utgar's Black Bullet. If you do, you may roll 4 additional attack dice.

Outlaw Ambush
At the end of the round, if there is at least one revealed order marker on an Outlaw hero you control, you may reveal the X order marker on a unique Outlaw hero that you control and take a turn with that hero. Jedidiah must have line of sight to any figure that Outlaw attacks during that turn. Jedidiah Mulroney can be the Outlaw to take a turn with Outlaw Ambush.

To highlight the changes, Outlaw Ambush now requires Jedidiah to have line of sight to any enemy that is attacked during the turn provided by Outlaw Ambush.

A lot of bonding abilities require line of sight to the figure that is activated, but it is rare that the bonding is limited instead by line of sight to the enemy. I think it's thematically fitting. Jedidiah is saying "hey there's someone right there, get em". This also makes positioning Jedidiah throughout the game more interesting, and opens up a lot of counter play. I think I'll have to drop his points a bit as a result, but I'm not sure by how much just yet.

[quozl]

In order to not have him hide in the corner for the whole game, why not just make Outlaw Ambush only work with Jed so that only Jed can take the free turn?