Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Aldin

@ollie Fair enough. So you believe that there are physical things that exist outside of causal (cause and effect) relationships?

Sort of. I think that framing everything as cause-and-effect is the wrong framework, for a couple of reasons.

First, statistical. Your Grut Orc's attack caused the death of my Deathwalker, but the attack did not lead inexorably to the death: that was down to the random chance of the die rolls. This is close to what I meant by the noise factor. I think actions cause effects, but usually there's ambiguity about precisely what the effect is and which actions/factors contributed what percentage to the effect.

Second, and more deeply perhaps (a guaranteed way to get an argument blown out of the water) I think there are different levels where what could theoretically be reduced to deterministic cause in a lower level does little-to-nothing to explain the effect on a higher level. In the above example, you might appeal to the exact speed and direction the dice were rolled at, the humidity and airflow in the room and so on to try to make a case that there was no randomness in the result.

Even if true (and this is where my indifference to determinism comes in) it's still a stupid idea to try to understand Heroscape by analysing the physical mechanics of die-rolling.

In much the same way, you don't go to a physicist to understand evolution. Physics puts some constraints on what's going on, but the toolkits of physics are not the right ones. (Whether you go to a biologist or a priest is a different question. ) Similarly, a biologist is not the right person to help you understand Heroscape, even though it is ultimately constrained by the biologies of the people playing, which in turn are constrained by Physics.

Questions about free will strike me the same way. As DS has pointed out, we have free will (or at least the ability to make choices, if that's an important distinction to anyone). That it might "actually" be atoms whizzing around, or the toe-nail clippings of a supreme being, or a kid having a tantrum playing the sims that's going on does not seem like the right question (or, arguably, even an interesting one).

A while back I think that "emergence" was the buzzword that went with this phenomenon. I don't claim to be either current or thorough in my reading or thinking about it.

Originally Posted by Tornado

The topic of no free choice I find a bit scary. To me that feels like the worst kind of curse and I am unwilling to accept that. I can see how one can feel the same about their faith.

Does it feel like you don't have free choice though? Would some weird science/religious explanation for what's going on in your head make it feel like you didn't have free choice, even if you 100% bought the explanation?

[Tornado]

I believe I have free choice.

If someone I respected presented a case that was hard to deny than I am not sure.

I have changed my thoughts on time travel. Hawking presented a strong case against it and so I have shifted to a parallel universe theory.
That one was tough but I accepted it. I am not sure I could accept no free will though.
I suppose that is one I will have to wait to choose if I can.

[ollie]

You're starting a draft game of Heroscape. Two-player, 500pts, C3V and SoV allowed, but none of that superhero nonsense. You have first pick. Who do you choose?

Tomorrow, your favourite scientist/priest/celebrity convinces you of your lack of free will.

Tomorrow night, another game of Heroscape. Same conditions. Who do you choose? Does it feel any different to last night?

Out ability to choose is a real thing. The underlying explanation (or lack of explanation) is not an important factor when it comes to the choices we make every day.

[Dad_Scaper]

Right. The distinction without a difference.

I utterly reject that my world is in any way less wonderful, less full of mystery, less full of choice, less full of morality, in the absence of a deity. Assuming that there isn't one.

Ollie strikes the nail on the head: It's a distinction without a difference.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by ollie

You're starting a draft game of Heroscape. Two-player, 500pts, C3V and SoV allowed, but none of that superhero nonsense. You have first pick. Who do you choose?

Tomorrow, your favourite scientist/priest/celebrity convinces you of your lack of free will.

Tomorrow night, another game of Heroscape. Same conditions. Who do you choose? Does it feel any different to last night?

Out ability to choose is a real thing. The underlying explanation (or lack of explanation) is not an important factor when it comes to the choices we make every day.

Raelin because duh.

Next night, Raelin because see previous answer.

:P

~Dysole, who thinks there's some element of choice, but does wonder at how much less of it we may have than we think

[Tornado]

But the underlying explanation is the point of the discussion.

The question as to if I would feel different is unanswerable until it happens.
I am not sure there would be a point to Heroscape if all the choices are predetermined.
Are the dice rolls predetermined as well?

And when would I do a C3V draft? That is just silly.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Tornado

But the underlying explanation is the point of the discussion.

The question as to if I would feel different is unanswerable until it happens.
I am not sure there would be a point to Heroscape if all the choices are predetermined.
Are the dice rolls predetermined as well?

And when would I do a C3V draft? That is just silly.

But my point is that we're asking the wrong question. If everything is predetermined, it's already predetermined. If you enjoy playing Heroscape now when it's predetermined, why wouldn't you enjoy it tomorrow when it's predetermined but you happen to know it?

In my opinion, the question isn't about determinism vs. free will, it's about how free will arises anyway given that the universe is, at least to some extent, deterministic. (If you like you can sub in "sensation of free will" or something for "free will", but this is, I think, the distinction without a difference that DS is talking about.)

And while it's somewhat mysterious, I don't think that it's unusual or particularly unexpected. The more we understand systems, the more we see that relatively straightforward rules or constraints can give rise to complex behaviour. Exactly how they do so varies and is varying degrees of explainable, but it's not a rare thing.

And you should try a Classic/C3V draft to get an example: compared to C3G you get deeper gameplay from cards that are a lot less complicated.

[Tornado]

I totally understand your point I think you do not understand mine.

I doubt anyone could present a case strong enough to make me change my mind on free will. However, if they did, it would change my outlook on something like Heroscape where it is a win/lose situation.
I would probably shift my focus back to writing. I know it would still be predetermined but at least I would have something to show for it.

I know it should not matter, and the illusion of free will should be enough but it just is not for me. However I think I could handle it if it is determined we are just part of a computer game but that is probably has to do with my AI programming.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don't understand. Tornado, is somebody saying you don't have free will?

[Dr.Goomonkey]

I think I was saying Tornado doesn't have free will. Your phrase "distinction without difference" is fantastic though, I'm sure I'll use that at some point.

Also, I think determinism actually makes HeroScape more interesting. By playing HeroScape you are part of the universal destiny for Deathwalkers to roll all skulls on defense. I get a kick out of that, at least. And I guess by doing anything you are doing you are part of the universal destiny for whatever that thing is...

[Dad_Scaper]

"Distinction without a difference" is a phrase I think I picked up in law school. Law & philosophy have much in common, so I'm not surprised you found something interesting in a phrase from my days as a 1L. In fact, I went to law school to advance my training in philosophy, and in my professional life I've found what I was looking for in the meeting of the two.

Regardless of whether (1) an omnipotent being knows what I will do and has unlimited power to affect my choices, and therefore exerts - even by inaction - complete control over my life, or (2) I do what I do because of synapses firing in my brain and whatever other chemical reactions affect my behavior, or even (3) it's turtles all the way down, I will do what I will do. The ability that I have to choose to do a thing and then to do it is my free will, regardless of how that choice came to be, or what Divine Being knew it was incoming.

As I've said above, a person need not believe in God to have a sense of wonder, an admirable moral code, and a strong, independent, free will. Let's not be presumptuous, please.

[ollie]

But I'm mostly posting because during The Great Heroscapers Outage Of 2018 I discovered that someone has already thought about infinite sudoku and wanted to share it to close the loop on that digression. And I keep forgetting to when I have something relevant to say.

Before seeing that, I put my own notes together about it, which includes a definition that is equivalent to the one there but not as slick and a few different problems. If anyone wants to see it, PM me your email and I'll send it. (To understand it all you'll need to understand the basics of functions (injections, bijections, mathy notation) and, to get all of it, some bits about infinities). But you're probably better off with the link above unless you're really getting into it.