4th massachutsets or aubrian archers? and why?

[Revdyer]

Originally Posted by Jexik

The Aubriens are cool if you're lucky and dig pointed ears, but otherwise, you really can't go wrong with the 4th Massachusetts Line.

This is true. The 4th Mass are, after all, Red Sox fans.

[Shades fan]

Nice one But the 4th mass are what you are going to want.

[LilMoochie]

I like the 4th Mass if I'm defending a position because the enemy comes to you and you don't have to waive your most important ability just by moving them into position. They are the best in castles.

I like the Aubriens if I'm attacking an enemy position because they have better range and, over time, they will cover more ground with frenzy. Not have drawn-out lines of troops makes them more efficient in that regard.. Tournament-minded folks don't like having to rely on the D20, though and I respect that.

[Revdyer]

Well, I suppose everyone knows how much I like the 4th Mass., but tonight I played against an army with two squads of Aubriens. In the first Round they frenzied twice, and taking three turns with them in a row changed the beginning of the game. Then, when the battle had really developed, and I had nagrubs and Marro drones, who killed Sonlen and Syvarris, suddenly the Aubriens frenzied four times in a row...five turns and my nagrubs and my drones were no more.

[SgtHulka]

Originally Posted by Browncoat

Personally, I'm kind of surprised that these are the same point cost when there's this big of a difference in value.

I suspect it's becaue the 25% chance of frenzying makes them statistically similar to a 4-unit squad. In four turns, they'll probably frenzy once, meaning you'll get 15 total actions. Compared to 16 with the 4th Mass. The designers might have thought that wait then fire and better range and mobility (the latter as a result of frenzy) evened each other out.

4th Mass has a lot more going for them in terms of synergy. I suspect the designers are reluctant to base too much, in terms of point cost, on synergy, since that's a "living" aspect of the game. New cards can come out that increase or decrease the synergy of older cards.

I'm just thinking out loud, really, but I generally agree that AA should maybe be 65 points instead of 70. Or, more likely, 4th Mass should be 75 instead of 70.

I find the consistency of their squad size extremely interesting. Longarm Gun squads are all 4 (AE, 4th Mass, Ashigara, Marro Warriors, Militia). Bow squads are all 3 (AA, Orc A, Roman A, Tagawa A). SciFi Smallarm Gun sqauds are all 3 (Snipers, all the Agents, Gorillas). Sword and shield squads are all 4 (Knights, Tarns, Romans, etc.) and Beastie squads vary (deathrevers x4, wolves x3). I wonder what the philosophy is behind that, and whether we'll ever see a squad break from the pattern (like a Longbow squad of 4 or a rifle squad of 2 or 3).

[AmishBurrito]

Originally Posted by Browncoat

4th Massachusetts Line
4 Figures
70 Points
1 - Life
5 - Move
6 - Range
2 - Attack
2 - Defense

Wait Then Fire
+1 attack when no figures move this turn.

Valiant Army Bonus
+1 defense when all cards have valiant personality

Aubrien Archers
3 Figures
70 Points
1 - Life
5 - Move
7 - Range
2 - Attack
2 - Defense

Frenzy
Roll 16-20 (25%) and take another turn.

Attempting to Justify the Aubrian Archers

I stole this quote just so I wouldn't have to write out the stats again.
One thing to keep in mind is that the frenzy stacks, meaning that if the aubrians roll for frenzy successfully, they have another chance to roll for frenzy. This means for every order marker on them, they take 1 turn plus 0.25 + 0.25^2 + 0.25^3 +0.25^4 etc etc. When converging this infinite series, you will notice that this equates to 1 and 1/3 turns per order marker.

Therefore, overall, the AA's can be seen to act as 1.33333 turns per order marker. Sometimes this may happen many frenzy's in a row, sometimes there will not be a frenzy for 10 turns. That said, I will now try to mathematically justify the Aubrien Archers.

Units Activated
If you look at the unit statistically, you will activate (on average) 4 AA's per turn (3 x 1.333). This equates mathematically to the 4th Mass's 4 figures.

Total Movement
The movement is not as simple mathematically. at 5 move * 1.333 turns per order marker, they will move 6 and 2/3 spaces on average per order marker. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that since it is only three figures acting as four figures, that the movement will be slightly easier to accomplish, as there will be less crowding occurring between the units when attempting to move across narrow bridges or something of the like. (This should round their movement up to 7, accounting for situational mathematics of terrain and crowding)

Attack and Defense
If you assume my justification of the movement of the Aubrien Archers is correct, this makes them a very mobil squad, allowing them to get height advantage more quickly, boosting them to a 3/3 squad. This is highly situational, however, and will require good order marker placement and maneuvering on the part of the user.

Overall
Now, let us update the unit stats, deleting their special ability

Aubrien Archers
3 Figures (4 activated per turn)
70 Points
1 - Life
7 - Move
7 - Range
2 - Attack
2 - Defense

The Aubrien archers are relatively equal to the 4th Mass (as their point cost suggests) and I believe that if played correctly, the Aubriens would be a better force. The problem is that the frenzy is unreliable, as is height advantage. The 4th mass are a more dependable unit, and are easier to use for less experienced/less strategic players. In order to use the AA's effectively, you must be able to weigh the odds of the D20 in every decision you make.

Amish,
-bringing math back into style

[Jexik]

Although the Aubriens are more mobile, that's really all they've got going for them. Assuming that you're playing with a Valiant Army, you've got two separate 'units' in the 4th Mass, both of which are defensively superior to the Aubriens- they have much better staying power:

4th Massachusetts line
4 Figures (4 activated per turn, and 4 that need to be killed to wipe out the squad)
70 Points
1 - Life
5 - Move
6 - Range
2 - Attack
3 - Defense

As you watch good Mass players play, they spend most of their time moving to high ground, or bringing more linemen into the firefight. The only time I'd really suggest using WTF is when you're fighting tough melee or short ranged foes that have to come into range to attack you, like Romans or Stingers. Much like the Stinger Drain, WTF isn't a requirement, it's an option.

4th Massachusetts line using WTF
4 Figures
70 Points
1 - Life
0 - Move
6 - Range
3 - Attack
3 - Defense

Too bad they aren't Aussies. WTF, mate!

Just for kicks... with Marcus' movement bonus (and thus no Valiant):

4th Massachusetts line
4 Figures
70 Points
1 - Life
6 - Move
6 - Range
2 - Attack
2 - Defense

These guys play more similarly to Aubriens, but still eke them out in my opinion because you have to kill more to wipe out the squad.

[AmishBurrito]

Originally Posted by Jexik

you have to kill more to wipe out the squad.

Good Point, I had overlooked the fact that one loss to the aubriens is more devastating than one loss to the 4th.

As for the bonus's, they definitely need to be considered.
Marcus can boost the 4th to 5 move
(Keep in mind, he can also boost them +1 attack if he is adjacent)
If the rest of the army is valliant, that boosts them to 3 Defense

The aubriens only have one bonus that I can think of right now:
Acolarh's life saving aura.

The 4th definitely have better bonus's (and more of them) than the AA's.

Personally, I would pick the 4th over the AA's, since I like to reduce the amount of luck in my armies as much as possible, but I do think the AA's are just as good an alternative in the hands of a strategic player.

[Jexik]

Venoc Warlord also boosts their frenzy chance- but 120 points isn't worth it for just that. He's really designed to go alongside the VV's. The Mass get more mileage out of Marcus Genuine Draft than the Aubriens do from Mittens.

I think the best thing that can be said about the Aubriens is really from the other side when comparing them to the 4th Mass.

They don't have as many drafting restrictions. They work much better with units like Deathreavers, Nilfheim, Q9, Raelin, etc... because they don't need a full Valiant bonus to remain at the top of their game. The 4th Mass need to use Knights of Weston instead of Deathreavers, Thorgrim in place of Raelin, etc. Unless of course your name is Neo.

When you're ready, you won't have to play a Valiant army.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by SgtHulka

I find the consistency of their squad size extremely interesting. Longarm Gun squads are all 4 (AE, 4th Mass, Ashigara, Marro Warriors, Militia). Bow squads are all 3 (AA, Orc A, Roman A, Tagawa A). SciFi Smallarm Gun sqauds are all 3 (Snipers, all the Agents, Gorillas). Sword and shield squads are all 4 (Knights, Tarns, Romans, etc.) and Beastie squads vary (deathrevers x4, wolves x3). I wonder what the philosophy is behind that, and whether we'll ever see a squad break from the pattern (like a Longbow squad of 4 or a rifle squad of 2 or 3).

Interesting insight. I would love to see this addressed in the main site's new Designer's Corner.

[Uprising]

Don't forget that the Aubriens out range the 4th Mass. Granted, it's only by 1, but it still out ranges them nonetheless. Hit and run tactics while out ranging your opponent.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and choosing which ever unit you'll enjoy playing the most. If you want a solid performing unit, choose the 4th Mass. If you like a little more chaos and unpredictability, choose the Aubriens. I myself love units that utilize the D20.

[AmishBurrito]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Venoc Warlord also boosts their frenzy chance- but 120 points isn't worth it for just that. He's really designed to go alongside the VV's. The Mass get more mileage out of Marcus Genuine Draft than the Aubriens do from Mittens.

I think the best thing that can be said about the Aubriens is really from the other side when comparing them to the 4th Mass.

They don't have as many drafting restrictions. They work much better with units like Deathreavers, Nilfheim, Q9, Raelin, etc... because they don't need a full Valiant bonus to remain at the top of their game. The 4th Mass need to use Knights of Weston instead of Deathreavers, Thorgrim in place of Raelin, etc. Unless of course your name is Neo.

When you're ready, you won't have to play a Valiant army.

Haha, yeah, the drafting restrictions are really constricting to your army variability. I just ran the numbers on the VW, and he gives the AA's and VV's a +9.5% increase in turns, not too shabby. It puts them at 1.4286 turns per order marker!

I had no idea the impact of the VW was that large until converging the infinite sum. Maybe I'll start using him more often.