C3G Requests for Reevaluation

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

Originally Posted by Hahma

Question: Obviously I haven't seen much of the tourney builds/lists, but from what I've seen posted here and there, they seem mostly hero-centric. Are squad-heavy builds used much? Not popular? Not any good? Or just really posted much?

@Hahma

I think a big reason you don't see many squad-heavy builds is because there aren't that many squads to choose from compared to heroes.

Anyway, here's my take on the squads I've used/faced, some of which have been pretty powerful.

5th Precinct Beat Cops - As others have noted, this is a really useful defensive unit.
Amazon Warriors - I've only seen them used in one game and they held their own.
Arkham Inmates - Only faced them once, they didn't seem too effective.
Gorrilla City Warriors - I found these guys to be pretty devastating, definitely a strong army vs heroes.
Hand Ninja - I think these guys can make a really strong army. Tons of bonding options. I haven't used Punisher with them yet, but I figure their strongest build would include him.
Hawkmen of Thangar- Played twice, barely remember them.
HYDRA Agents - This is one of the most powerful armies I've seen (with Red Skull & Cosmic Cube).
Intergang Agents - Expensive, but getting 5 activations for 2 OM's a round (after revealing the X on The Hood.) can be pretty devastating. I brought an Intergang army to an online event once and they went 3-0.
Street Thugs - I think I only used/faced them once (and it's been a long time), but the seem like they should be pretty strong, and would dominate on asphault/concrete heavy maps. Like the HYDRA, 4 ranged attacks is no joke when you're also getting to activate a solid hero (that's not Two-Face).
Vampire Minions - They seem solid. Against range or single attacking melee. 3 attacks of 4 with potential frenzies can do some damage to heroes.

[Hahma]

Thanks Sparkle

[Porkins]

What's the four figure unique squad of gang thugs with double attack? Those guys kick butt.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Porkins

What's the four figure unique squad of gang thugs with double attack? Those guys kick butt.

@Porkins they're the Hired Guns.

[Smithy Winfred]

I'm personally a big fan of the SHIELD and HYDRA agents, not only does it look cool to pit them against each other, but both of them have a lot of advantages over heroes (I was actually able to bring down Thor with my HYDRA army once) SHIELD can be very multipurpose, giving you strength in numbers, but also a great power attack against stubborn heroes. HYDRA gives you massive strength in numbers, allowing you to use bog down your opponent with droves of minions while your heavy hitting long range units (Madame HYDRA can dominate with a couple HYDRA agents) They even have a little edge against multi-attacking units, which is always nice. Don't even get me started about Madame HYDRA w/ the Cosmic Cube, with 4 squads of HYDRA protecting her: It is almost impossible to defeat her.

I think the reason why squads tend to be less used, and less likely to be overpriced, is because you need at least 3-5 to be really effective. The squads that break this rule (*cough* Beat Cops) tend to be the ones that are much more used. Anyone who wants to use HYDRA agents, essentially has to build a large chunk of their army as HYDRA (at least red skull and madame HYDRA, if not more) and I personally am not a fan of forcing myself into one faction a lot.

Sorry if I'm long winded

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by TheSparkleInYourWater

Hand Ninja - I think these guys can make a really strong army. Tons of bonding options. I haven't used Punisher with them yet, but I figure their strongest build would include him.

It does but requires Lady Shiva to transform Punisher into an Assassin. I add in Winter Soldier and either Elite League or Man-Bat Assassins to round out the team. For awhile that build was undefeated on our game table.

[dok]

Bizarro test:

weebaer                 Dok
Frankenstein
                        Mongul
Hulk (C3G)
                        Wonder Woman
                        Bizarro 
Ragdoll
Atom
                        Aaron Cash
                        Blob
Leech
Bruce Banner
                        Chronos
                        Moloid
Juggernaut
                        Moloid
                        Moloid
                        Moloid

Results:

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by dok

I opened the game by having Chronos drop his TD glyphs and tossing Leech far enough away that Blob couldn't get drained. Juggernaut had a chance to do some damage with his charge attack early on, but Wonder Woman blocked, and then Mongul knocked him back. I then podded everything up so there was no angle for Juggernaut's special.

weebaer did a bunch of wounds to Bizarro by making him move with villainous duty and then pounding him with Frank and Hulk, but eventually I got Frank to go down and the Hulk turned into Banner. Juggernaut rolled poorly trying to take down Bizarro (although hits would have just wounded Aaron Cash) and went down next. The Incredible Hulk did manage to hit Bizarro enough to kill Aaron Cash, but with Wonder Woman holding the power gem and pounding him from height, it was only a matter of time. I won with a 4-wound Bizarro, two Moloids, an unwounded Blob, Wonder Woman, and Mongul, and Chronos sitting off the map.

stats:

Spoiler Alert!

Attack rolls: 82 out of 155 (52.9%)
Defense rolls: 23 out of 57 (40.35%)
Total dice rolled: 212
Time used: 0h, 54m, 4s

weebaer
Attack rolls: 40 out of 79 (50.63%)
Defense rolls: 41 out of 126 (32.54%)
Total dice rolled: 205
Time used: 0h, 31m, 40s

Bizarro really warped this game. In order to draw Bizarro out, weebaer actually triggered his power on purpose twice. There were multiple attacks through the game that weebaer had to pass up to avoid Bizarro as well. Late in the game, both Juggernaut and Hulk had to try to grind through Bizarro (and Aaron Cash, which made it worse) instead of attacking Mongul and Wonder Woman (who were actually doing all the damage). Wonder Woman never had to risk losing her E-glyph, because she was not getting attacked.

[Hahma]

Wow, that's brutal

Edit: was this match-up intentionally done to show the potential against a mostly melee army or did it just work out that way as far as armies? Frank's ranged attack of 4 is pretty weak, especially with a low range.

Wouldn't be easier to attack Aaron Cash straight on with his 3 defense and 4 life than attacking a beefier opponent that would transfer any wounds to Cash anyway? Maybe the positioning didn't allow it and was forced to attack Bizarro instead.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Hahma

was this match-up intentionally done to show the potential against a mostly melee army or did it just work out that way as far as armies? Frank's ranged attack of 4 is pretty weak, especially with a low range.

No, this was a legit unlimited draft. Our first picks (Frank and Mongul) were automatic and everything else was voluntary.

When I picked Bizarro, weebaer had already picked Hulk. At that point he had 700 points committed, and another 600 to spend. His original plan (as I suspected and he later acknowledged) was Wally West, but Blob made that infeasible. So he went with Juggernaut as a counter to Wonder Woman's Lasso, Blob's stuck, and because of his special to get around Bizarro.

We did discuss that he might have been better off with Cable, or with Snipers + Mentallo, or something like that. But I don't think this was a horrid draft on his part.

Originally Posted by Hahma

Wouldn't be easier to attack Aaron Cash straight on with his 3 defense and 4 life than attacking a beefier opponent that would transfer any wounds to Cash anyway? Maybe the positioning didn't allow it and was forced to attack Bizarro instead.

Well, if Bizarro is near, then you can't attack Cash with a normal attack with out just getting socked by Bizarro. That's the problem. And I never put Aaron Cash in a spot where weebaer could use the charging special attack on him. Cash was either up against the edge of the map, or backed by elevation/other figures that Juggernaut couldn't charge through in 4 move.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by dok

No, this was a legit unlimited draft. Our first picks (Frank and Mongul) were automatic and everything else was voluntary.

When I picked Bizarro, weebaer had already picked Hulk. At that point he had 700 points committed, and another 600 to spend. His original plan (as I suspected and he later acknowledged) was Wally West, but Blob made that infeasible. So he went with Juggernaut as a counter to Wonder Woman's Lasso, Blob's stuck, and because of his special to get around Bizarro.

We did discuss that he might have been better off with Cable, or with Snipers + Mentallo, or something like that. But I don't think this was a horrid draft on his part.

Well, if Bizarro is near, then you can't attack Cash with a normal attack with out just getting socked by Bizarro. That's the problem. And I never put Aaron Cash in a spot where weebaer could use the charging special attack on him. Cash was either up against the edge of the map, or backed by elevation/other figures that Juggernaut couldn't charge through in 4 move.

Thanks for the extra insight dok.

I have been testing some small armies to bring to my Monday night game night (which has between 18-30 people show up), as I wanted to try to get some of these folks to try superheroscape, but it had to be on a small scale for quick play.

I have been wanting to be thematic, so I did a Batman (200), Robin (100) and Green Arrow (150) vs. Merlyn (160) Catwoman (145) and Scarecrow (140) and they seemed to work out in a couple games and seemed like good matches.

Then I went for the X-Men theme with Wolverine, Colossus and Shadowcat vs. Sentinels x 4 and the Sentinels just got creamed every time. So then tried Sabretooth, Blob and Mystique I and they didn't fare too well. Then switched out Deadpool for Sabretooth and still didn't work out. Finally, I got Deadpool, Gambit and Pyro and they did good against the good guys. The main issues had been single attacking Sentinels getting sliced up by Wolvie. Normal attacks (except for Sabretooth's special) not doing well vs. Colossus. And finally getting a good combination of healing and multiple attacking from DP vs. Wolvie, and the Specials from Gambit and Pyro being able to affect Colossus. Shadowcat was good to keep a teammate safe from range for awhile though.

Next some Spidey stuff.

But anyway, it was interesting to find a good balance of armies to counter others and if there wasn't a good mix of range, special attacks or other misc. things, straight up even points didn't necessarily mean even match-up.

Edit: That said, I have never played Bizarro or against him. But I can see how Villainous Duty seems to be problematic. Being able to dish out wounds like that is kind of nuts. Perhaps a d20 roll could be required to either trigger the power, or to be rolled to see if a wound is given with it, or an unblockable attack die.

[IAmBatman]

CRB Endorsement for Aaron Cash added to the OP. Looks like Sage and Mastermind are the closest to popping right now. If I find the time later today, I might try to get set up to run one of them.

Any suggestions for how to test either of them from competitive-minded players would be much appreciated!

[Tornado]

The dilemma I see with the current list is most of these are defensive figures that grow even more powerful when used together. So to properly test how 'broken' they may be will require them to be played together with each figure skewing the results of the others.
I am not sure how to get around this.
Perhaps we should strive to start with the most 'broken' and work back from there.
I am unsure as to what the best procedure should be. What I do know is that the issues with these designs are compounded when you group them together.