The Book of Question

[Scapemage]

I appreciate the sentiments. I know a lot of heroes are MIA for various reasons right now, and I really don't mind running a couple more games, especially with smaller armies. I'm The OM requirement is definitely staying, so I'll see where he feels and look to move to public after those games. I was feeling his weakness quite strongly after my first test and it felt like a few others were too, but he may prove his worth yet.

[Scapemage]

Here are my games, tested with this version of the power:

MASTER DETECTIVE
Once per round, after revealing an Order Marker on this card and instead of moving, you may choose any Order Marker on an adjacent figure’s Army Card and reveal it. If you choose a numbered Order Marker, you may remove it from that Army Card. If you choose an “X” Order Marker, that figure rolls 2 fewer defense dice when attacked by Question this turn, or 3 fewer defense dice if it is a Criminal or Crime Lord.

It's the same as before with the Order Marker restriction and the addition of Crime Lords. I meant to add the Crime Lords into the effect range earlier when we were discussing his lore, but forgot about it until a bit ago.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: QUESTION (Vic Sage)

Army Test
Map: Sulfur Swamp
Units: Question (140), Ozymandius (200), The Riddler (140), Joker I (190), Harley Quinn (130) = 800 VS. Nightwing (200), Raven (190), Cyborg I (200), Tempest (210) = 800

Spoiler Alert!

Titans take the opening initiative, and Ozymandius steals the X from Nightwing. Most figures advance in round one.

Question-force wins initiative and Joker funnels all OMs onto Nightwing. Riddler quizzes the Titans since Ozy didn't remove an OM, but the Titans fail, causing Nightwing's entire round to be blown up. Question engages Tempest and wounds him from height.


The Titans decide to give up on trying to bond until a figure or two is taken out, so they spread their OMs only to have their 3 removed from Raven by Ozy. Titans get initiative Question is wounded by Cyborg but Master Detective hits the X on Tempest. Tempest takes 1 wound from this, and Nightwing tries to set up a flank. Nightwing takes 3 damage from a lucky shot by Joker late in the round.

Ozy gets the X from Nightwing and Question-force wins initiative, allowing Joker to move OMs to Nightwing. Joker tries to take Nightwing out but fails, who wounds Joker in exchange. Question puts another wound onto Tempest and Nightwing damages Joker before perishing.

Ozy steals the 2 from Raven but Titans win initiative. Tempest hits Harley with water placement, missing Ozy, and Master Detective finds the X on Cyborg, getting in for a wound. Question then eliminates Tempest with another good roll. Raven moves up and rolls low, missing Harley and taking a wound from Ozy.

Ozy steals the X from Raven but Titans take initiative, allowing Raven to move a wound to Ozymandius. Question finds the 2 on Cyborg, then Joker hits Raven. Cyborg and Ozymandius miss attacks.

Ozy steals the 2 and Joker moves OMs onto Cyborg, allowing Question to snag the 3 away from him and hit him for 2 wounds. Cyborg's special attack prevents a Smoke Pellet and Question takes 2 wounds of his own. The stolen 2 OM provides Question bloodlust enough to finish off Cyborg, and Ozy gives Raven her second wound.

On a Question-force initiative, Riddler has Raven guess wrong and nukes her round. Question takes the opportunity to get in position and wound Raven.

Raven gets this initiative and kills Question with a lucky roll of one skull. Riddler's challenge fails this time, allowing Raven to hit Ozymandius. After a couple more misses on both sides, Raven falls to Ozy.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Question-Force wins. Harley Quinn w/ 1 wound, Ozymandius w/ 2 wounds, Joker w/ 2 wounds, Riddler unharmed.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sulfur Swamp
Units: Question (130), Ozymandius (200), Joker I (190), Carnage (280) = 800 VS. Two-Face II (170), Penguin II (140), Lex Luthor II (280), Bad Cops x1 (55), Street Thugs x2 (150) = 795

Spoiler Alert!

Question-force takes opening initiative and forces OMs onto Bad Cops. Question advances with Urban Communion and Two-Face flips scarred. Two-Face allows Lex Luthor to move, who flies into range to blast Question and force the use of the first Smoke Pellet. Two-Face then advances. Carnage and Bad Cops advance. Carnage runs into the fray and targets Two-Face, but a weak attack means no harm. Carnage is hit by a Bad Cop but begins to scale the cliff as Symbiote Senses tingle for the second attack.

Ozymandius steals the 3 from Street Thugs, and a 1 on the die from the Crime Lords sees Joker moving OMs onto Penguin. Carnage slays a Bad Cop then uses Kill Crazy to get an Investment Marker off Penguin. Criminal Syndicate moves Street Thugs and wounds Carnage as Joker advances in the back. Carnage takes another wound as more Street Thugs advances from Syndicate, and the stolen OM allows Question to come attack and miss Two-Face.

Ozy steals the 3 from Lex and puts it onto Carnage, leaving Joker's card blank. Question-force wins the initiative and is still satisfied as Master Detective snags the 1 from Two-Face. Question whiffs. Carnage slays the other Bad Cop and a Street Thug then eats the second Investment Marker from Penguin. Street Thugs finally get a full turn, letting Two-Face wound Question. The Thugs wound Question as well, who then uses his last Smoke Pellet to get loose. Carnage uses the stolen OM to Tendril Swing into a group of Thugs, but misses.

Ozy steals the 2 from the Street Thugs and supplies Joker with the ability to rearrange on a won initiative. Sure enough, Question-force rolls better than Crime Lord Collusion can help and push OMs to Penguin. Master Detective removes the X from Two-Face, and a wound is dealt by Question. Cobblepot fails to dent Carnage, who kills 2 more Thugs and gets the last Investment Marker. Ozymandius advances in the back and Penguin moves to higher ground to end the round.

The X is swiped from the Thugs, and Criminals get initiative. Two-Face flips the good coin, then allowing Lex Luthor to finally come out and play. Lex triggers Symbiote Senses and Carnage moves into position for later. Question removes the 3 OM from Two-Face and then attack Lex, who easily blocks. Street Thugs enable Penguin to wound Carnage, pushing Carnage to his last life before his Senses kick in. Carnage has a very weak turn despite his positioning, only eliminating one Thug. Ozymadnius then advances.

Ozy steals the 2 but puts in onto Question, leaving Joker unable to rearrange markers. Carnage stays put and tries again to bring havoc, killing all but one Thug and taking Penguin down with them. Two-Face puts Question on his last leg, then the Thug triggers movement from Carnage. Carnage takes out the last Thug, then Ozymandius misses Lex.

Criminals win initiative after Ozy steals the 2, and Two-Face flips good again. He wounds Ozymandius and Carnage comes in. Master Detective hits the X on Lex, resulting in one wound. Lex rolls 4 skulls and Carnage plummets to his death. Ozymandius can't harm Lex, and the round ends.

The X is stolen and OMs are moved to Two-Face, where Master Detective removes the 3. Question wounds Lex Luthor, and Two-Face flips scarred. Lex and Two-Face team up in a super turn to kill Ozymandius, and Question can't hit Lex. Two-Face kills Question, leaving just Joker in their path.

The next three rounds see some traded wounds, but Joker manages to pull out the win with one life left.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Question-force. Joker w/ 5 wounds.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: 140 is definitely feeling right for me now. Question was useful in both games, but not overwhelmingly so. All of his powers saw decent use even when the armies had lots of other things going on. The first game was quite a smash with Riddler adding an additional layer of damage to opposing turns, but the brutal powerhouse of Carnage in the second game was a challenge that was not insurmountable for the criminals. It's rare that Master Detective hits the X and Question rolls well on his attack, but one well-placed shot can mean a lot given that Question can get into a good position fairly easily with Phantom Walk and his Smoke Pellets.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: (fill in here)

140 really feels like a good place for him now. Any thoughts I had about his weaknesses from my Initial were mitigated by these games, where he felt useful but not overbearing in smaller games. I would now like to propose a move to Public Playtesting at 140 points.

[Lazy Orang]

I would like to see one test in a smaller game where you can get a feel for his value but it isn't being inflated by high-level OM manipulators. I recognise he needs to be priced in accordance with them, but if the discrepancy between using him in those, unthematic pairings and using him normally is great enough that he's not worth drafting without Joker, I'd consider this an issue.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I would like to see one test in a smaller game where you can get a feel for his value but it isn't being inflated by high-level OM manipulators. I recognise he needs to be priced in accordance with them, but if the discrepancy between using him in those, unthematic pairings and using him normally is great enough that he's not worth drafting without Joker, I'd consider this an issue.

I agree that we need to hit that, but I think it's fair to do in public testing, not the initial.

yea to public testing

[Soundwarp SG-1]

A little late here, but with the OM requirement bit added I don't really have any CRB concerns with the OM removal power.

I would say he needs to be at least 150 points though just for all the useful features of double smoke pellets. Like beyond being a really good protector for Red Skull and such, you can also just use Vic as a super cheap way to 'carry' 6 people up six spaces on turn one by targeting him for attacks yourself. That's honestly probably what I'd use him for the most actually and it's kinda broken, which probably isn't where you want the design at. Might want to see if the Smoke Pellets can get an errata so they only work against enemy figures, as that would nip most of the problem in the bud.

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

you can also just use Vic as a super cheap way to 'carry' 6 people up six spaces on turn one by targeting him for attacks yourself.

I did not think that attacking your own figures was allowed in Heroscape. I know it was a really weird pill to swallow when Summoner Wars was coming out as people slowly started killing their own units for Magic Points, but Heroscape seems like the kind of game without any intentional reason to allow that.

[Yodaking]

Yea for public PTing at 140. We can have someone try out that 'attack your own figures' strategy and adjust as we go along.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Scapemage

I did not think that attacking your own figures was allowed in Heroscape. I know it was a really weird pill to swallow when Summoner Wars was coming out as people slowly started killing their own units for Magic Points, but Heroscape seems like the kind of game without any intentional reason to allow that.

Attacking your own figures has always been a thing in Heroscape, DW 9000 and Krug are two super early examples of times when it can be a useful tactic. It's why they had to do an errata/ running change on the Deathreavers. There does seem to be some weird thing where a lot people thought it wasn't allowed/ decided it was somehow 'wrong' to do so, but it is a perfectly valid part of Heroscape.

[Ronin]

Yeah, I think attacking your own figures is just something that doesn't enter into a lot of people's thinking, much of the time, so they end up thinking it's not allowed.

I'd be fine with retconning the smoke pellets. I'm sure pod movement wasn't part of their intended (or tested) behavior.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Yeah, I think attacking your own figures is just something that doesn't enter into a lot of people's thinking, much of the time, so they end up thinking it's not allowed.

I'd be fine with retconning the smoke pellets. I'm sure pod movement wasn't part of their intended (or tested) behavior.

Agreed, lets just update the smoke pellets and be done with this issue.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Yeah, I think attacking your own figures is just something that doesn't enter into a lot of people's thinking, much of the time, so they end up thinking it's not allowed.

See, it's kind of funny because attacking your own stuff is something I'm pretty much always factoring in, but because of that I tend to assume that when a design allows for it it's an intentional feature when it seems like 90% of the time it isn't (in the C3G anyway). I really should start paying more attention there and assume people are just forgetting about it I guess.

That's really a facet of the hardest part of the whole CRB thing for me. The vast majority of 'super secret combos' and such I warn about are things that are to me pretty obvious (that's my mutant power I guess), so sometimes I just straight up forget to mention them. I should probably just come up with my own little checklist to run for each design or something.

[Tornado]

Dysole is awesome at making checklists.