SPOILER TALK: Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[TheAverageFan]

First of all, if you haven't yet seen The Force Awakens GET OUT NOW!!! I'd like to post this thread to discuss the movie and how I felt about it, and because I'm curious to hear what others thought about it, and maybe discuss the film and what we think might happen in future movies, without having to post everything in double Spoilers boxes.

I'm not the biggest fan of JJ Abrams, mostly due to those awful Star Trek movies he made a while back, and I was worried that Episode VII would just be 2 hours of explosions and overblown, nostalgia-gouging fan-service. Luckily I was wrong this time, and this movie is definitely my favorite of his work.

Here's what I liked and didn't like so much (since it did have it's flaws), in Spoilers just in case:

Spoiler Alert!

Remember, only for eyes of those who've seen the film:

Spoiler Alert!

Pros: This was a pretty great movie, very fun and energetic, and of course reeking of the original trilogy. It was a breath of fresh air since the not-so-hot Prequels, finally giving Star Wars that western sci-fi grit it once had. Here's what I liked.

1: The new characters. I was a little worried, but the new cast really smashed it in my opinion. Rey was good as the leading lady, really becoming the main character more and more as the movie went on. Poe was also good and funny, reminding me a lot of Wedge, and I look forward to seeing more of him in future movies. The one who took the cake, however, was definitely Finn. The audience connects to this guy really quickly, and I found him the most interesting of all the characters, especially since he's the only one who's not related to anyone from the old trilogy in any way. He's new, with endless possibilities for expansion in future movies. He was great. I also appreciate a lot of the humor the new cast was able to bring to the saga, and I look forward to seeing them again.

2: The old characters. Namely Han Solo, who practically owns this movie. Han is back, flying his prized ship, bantering with Chewie, and sweetalking Leia. It's like he was never gone over those last 30 years. I loved every second he was onscreen, and was terribly sad when he died (although I knew it was coming). It bums me out that what we got in this movie is likely to be all we'll ever get of Han Solo in the new movies, but it was great while it lasted.

3: The cinematography. An odd choice to a film novice perhaps, but this was a really well shot and well-directed movie. The Prequels were shot pretty poorly and terribly directed, especially during any dialogue and exposition scenes, so this was a breath of fresh air. The dog-fighting with the spaceships was especially excellent, and the first shot of the movie was great. Much better than the stagnant, motionless shot-reverse-shot of the Prequels. The "Mr. Plinkett" reviews on YouTube go into this sort of thing in a lot of detail when discussing the Prequels, and I highly suggest checking them out, provided you can handle lots of language and some very dark humor.

4: The Practicality. I really appreciate the efforts taken to bring this movie back to the golden days of cinema: when CGI was used sparingly and only when practical effects simply couldn't get the job done. As I said before, this movie is nice and dirty, filled with realistic practical effects and puppetry. I don't mind CGI, but when it's used in such an overkill way (see Prequels), it really stands out poorly. Sure some of the puppets looked a little... puppety, but hey, better that than some horrible CGI monstrosity. It'll hold up better over time.

Cons: Now onto the not so great stuff.

1: This movie is a remake, not a sequel. Star Wars The Force Awakens is a shot-for-shot remake of A New Hope. The plot is exactly the same in almost every way. I know we're going for familiarity here since this is a nostalgic treat, but really, another Death Star? Another freaking Death Star!? You'd think after the first two times the Empire would stop wasting so many resources on such a thing, and of course it has trenches and a one-shot weakness that can destroy the entire thing, for no other reason than "because first movie". The one thing I'll give the Prequels credit for is trying something different--it didn't work, but it was different. I'll give TFA some leeway since it's just getting started, but if Episode VIII is a remake of Empire Strikes Back, or worse yet if they build another one in Episode IX, there'll be hell to pay.

2: Kylo Ren. I might get some flak for this, but I thought Kylo Ren was weak in this movie. Early on he was pretty BA, menacing and dark similar to Darth Vader, but different enough for it to work (he was much less calculating, more prone to bouts of rage). However, when he took off his mask to show the beautiful flawless pretty boy underneath, things started going downhill. He reminded me a lot of the Arkham Knight from the Batman games: a supposedly awesome and bad*ss leader who's really more of a whiner when it comes down to it. His extremely vague ways to the Dark Side and emo teenager face reminded me more of Hayden Christensen than I'd like to admit (although he is a big Vader fan so maybe it makes sense). Kylo Ren also wins the award for Worst Sith Ever for losing to Rey, someone who has absolutely no experience with the Force or lightsabers yet is able to best Kylo in both (although I guess he was injured before the battle). On a similar Bad Guys note, Captain Phasma also does nothing this entire movie.

3: Luke Skywalker. Luke is in this movie for maybe 20 seconds. Back during the trailers days people were wondering where Luke was, and I personally figured that we didn't see much of Luke in the trailers because there probably wasn't much of Luke in the movie. I was more right than I would have liked: Luke is more of a cameo at the very end of the movie, most likely delegated to be the Yoda of Episode VIII. Luke is also responsible for pretty much everything bad that happens in TFA by going off to some mystery planet when Kylo goes berserk. They'll probably go into further detail about that in future movies, but for now that seems like an odd thing for Luke to do. Doesn't he care about saving his apprentice like he did saving Vader? Also since Luke isn't really in this movie and Han dies in this one, that sadly means we'll never get to see them together again after these 30 years, or see the original trio together again for that matter. Bummer.

Well, that sums up my feelings about the movie. I'm glad they didn't overkill it with the fan service, although I do hope future movies do their own thing and not try to replicate the past so much. Some people are saying that TFA is the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back, but I'm inclined to disagree. I don't think Episode VII will ever surpass any of the original trilogy its trying so hard to copy. I liked it, but I hope they go the "Finn" route in future flicks and give us more new stuff, because all our classics were always new back when they came out. Provided Disney will let any director take that kind of risk.

Agree? Disagree? I'm curious to know how others felt about the movie, now that it's finally out and available.

~TAF, conversationally

[Dysole]

My quick thoughts

Spoiler Alert!

The instant Han and Kylo Ren started talking I was hoping the movie would kill Han since that was the better plot choice and was going to be so mad if they chickened out and didn't.

My only complaints were too many callbacks for my taste (I wouldn't say quite a remake but it evoked a similar feel although I felt it did enough different) and I agree that Kylo Ren was weaker than I wanted. He reminds me a lot of Prince Zuko with his likely arc. (And kinda resembles the actor from the Shyamalan movie version) Otherwise I liked everything else quite well. B+/A- from me.

Also if Rey is not Luke's kid I will be shocked.

~Dysole, safer than sorry

[The Silver King]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

First of all, if you haven't yet seen The Force Awakens GET OUT NOW!!! I'd like to post this thread to discuss the movie and how I felt about it, and because I'm curious to hear what others thought about it, and maybe discuss the film and what we think might happen in future movies, without having to post everything in double Spoilers boxes.

I'm not the biggest fan of JJ Abrams, mostly due to those awful Star Trek movies he made a while back, and I was worried that Episode VII would just be 2 hours of explosions and overblown, nostalgia-gouging fan-service. Luckily I was wrong this time, and this movie is definitely my favorite of his work.

Here's what I liked and didn't like so much (since it did have it's flaws), in Spoilers just in case:

Spoiler Alert!

Remember, only for eyes of those who've seen the film:

Spoiler Alert!

Pros: This was a pretty great movie, very fun and energetic, and of course reeking of the original trilogy. It was a breath of fresh air since the not-so-hot Prequels, finally giving Star Wars that western sci-fi grit it once had. Here's what I liked.

Cons: Now onto the not so great stuff.

Well, that sums up my feelings about the movie. I'm glad they didn't overkill it with the fan service, although I do hope future movies do their own thing and not try to replicate the past so much. Some people are saying that TFA is the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back, but I'm inclined to disagree. I don't think Episode VII will ever surpass any of the original trilogy its trying so hard to copy. I liked it, but I hope they go the "Finn" route in future flicks and give us more new stuff, because all our classics were always new back when they came out. Provided Disney will let any director take that kind of risk.

Agree? Disagree? I'm curious to know how others felt about the movie, now that it's finally out and available.

~TAF, conversationally

I have literally the same pros and cons as you, but the cons were enough to kill the movie for me. I give it a 6.5 out of 10, which leaves it below with Episode III in my list. With the Original Trilogy obviously above them both. At least Episode III tried to be creative, and has the best actor in the whole Star Wars Saga at the height of his ability (Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan, making George Lucas' terrible dialogue still sound awesome).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Couldn't disagree more with you guys. Was it similar? Yes. The same? Not hardly. Give it a week and I'll say why, I just really don't want to post any spoilers - even with the warning.

[Tai-Pan]

Spoiler Alert!

I really enjoyed the movie! My initial feeling was very, very positive and I was in a theater full of people who just sat for 20 minutes after it was over discussing it, something I've never seen before.

Before I get on to my further thoughts, I thought it was important to remember the time in which this film was made. The Zeitgeist of now makes something like this incredibly hard to pull off "right", and a big part of "right" is finding out what the definition of "right" is. I read one review that said the best thing a film can accomplish is to give the audience something they didn't know they wanted. That sounds pretty good, but it's ridiculously hard to do, I figure.

EVOLUTION OF TIME AND STORY
Becuase this film had to be simultaneously classic and new, I'm okay with the decision to have TIEs and X-Wings still there. They are also the coolest dogfighting ships in sci-fi history, at least in my book, so including them includes a win. However, looking at the development of things from the time period of I-III and IV-VI, it would have been cool to see more development have happened. The X-Wings and TIEs don't look like they've changed much in the last 30 years, whereas you could see the design ideas preceding those in the ships of the era some 20 years before that. Lot of development in 20 years stagnates to no development in 30 years.

STRANGE STORY LINES
I didn't really understand why R2 didn't work, and then did. The way 3PO put it, it sounded like Droid Depression. But then I still don't follow why he finally worked. And then there's the thing with the map. Why is there a map with a trail to find Luke? Wouldn't coordinates have sufficed? Why does R2 not have the missing piece? How did the missing piece get to the old guy on Jakku (and who was he?)?

WEAK VILLAINS
I thought Ren looked too slightly built, even when he was still cool in the film. His figure just doesn't look powerful to me. After he took off his mask, he also seemed like an emo-weakling type villain. I like the truly evil bad guys of Star Wars. Vader, Tarkin, Maul, Dooku, Palpatine. These guys are cold and calculating and evil. Ren seemed very emotional and struggling with identity problems. Captain Plasma could have been left out, IMO, at least in this film. It seemed almost to be a Zeitgeist thing again to include more women, and have a female villain as well. I also thought that Hux was too young for his role. The leaders of the Empire were older men, and it strikes me as odd that such a young person would be such a leader. For force-users like Ren, that makes sense, but for the "secular" leaders, I didn't like it so much.

BLACK GUY AND MODERN HUMOR
There were quite a few moments where I kind of scratched my head thinking, "what is this humor doing here?" Things like Finn's "oh yeah, I'm the boss now" in Plasma's face (among other things that seemed typical for black roles in funny moments). I also felt that was part of a humor I don't particularly enjoy, which was sad, because there were quite a few genuinely funny moments.

CLASSIC MOMENTS
I really, really liked a lot of the nods to the old films. The fat X-Wing pilot was just one of the many little things that made me smile in remembrance.

EMOTIONAL MOMENTS
There were quite a few of these, where I was either fighting back the tears (as Chewie hugs Leia) or ready to shout out right before Finn shouts out in victory when the X-Wings rescue the day.

[Son of Arathorn]

Spoiler Alert!

Overall, I'd give it an optimistic 8 out of 10. Here's why:

The new faces are excellent. Great performances by Oscar Isaac, Daisey Ridley, and especially John Boyega. Subversively written, powerfully given, overall very well done indeed. Poe Dameron is my new favorite character based on style alone, though Rey and Finn are close seconds. Finn was very well-written, the naive kid who thinks he knows what's up getting tossed into the big bad galaxy, and the ensuing character development was great.

The humor- I dig J.J. Abrams' style when it comes to humor. Without topping the original trilogy here, they did it in a whole new way. Props to them.

The effects were terrific, IMO. Just the right amount of CGI.

The plot was fairly well-paced. There were a couple moments when I thought we could use some exposition, but I'll wager they left it out so we can get it later in the new trilogy.

Harrison Ford floored me. Superb performance. Han Solo has aged well. Seeing him and Chewbacca back in action was all the fan-service I needed.

Snoke- nice intro, a lot of mystery surrounding this character. Can't wait to hear his story.

Locations- great variety here, the sets and locales were intriguing and new enough to keep me riveted.

Now the drawbacks...

Another Death Star. Although not nearly so bad as repeating it in RotJ, since they did more with it, somehow I expected more. Having it use the power of a star was clever, as was having them infiltrate it rather than a trench run/reactor run. But somehow they've gotta break that mold. If I see another Death Star in the films to come, I'm crying foul. Nice meshing of the Death Star strategies in episodes IV & VI.

Kylo Ren- nicely done overall, kinda felt rushed. I don't mind the conflicted angle that people are calling emo- not all villains are 100% evil, nor are they 100% keeping it together. I'm intrigued.
This is a dumb nitpick, but I'd really rather they'd left him killing Han until later in the trilogy- however that's a different problem. He started out quite menacing, and I'm sure we'll get more examples of his Force abilities later in the trilogy, but by the end he didn't have me quaking in my boots the way Vader did anytime he came onscreen in the original trilogy.

Han's death- I just wish they'd left it until later. Yes, they had to kill off one of the old cast, yes Han was the obvious choice. But the filmmakers just canned the bulk of the acting talent they had leftover from the original trilogy. I hope Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher will be able to pick up the slack.

Captain Phasma- please God let this character have a line or two later in the trilogy that couldn't be given by any old stock "evil officer" type. Waste of talent in Gwendolyn Christie.

[Ninja Status]

Spoiler Alert!

The movie was terrific, definitely a 8.5/10 in my book (but that's just my opinion).

The return of the old cast was really nice, and it certainly gave me the feel that this was truly a great Star Wars flick.
There are some negatives though...

The Villains:
Kylo-Ren- Honestly, not my favorite character. Whenever I see a Sith character I automatically assume he/she will be filled with anger and evil, which I know I can't expect every time but Ren's performance was... eh.
I really hope he can choose a side and stick with it in the films to come, the scenes with him contrasting whether he should stay evil or return to light were not my favorite.

Han's Death- Really when I saw this I was surprised. I guess it makes sense to kill off one of the old cast members, I get that, but to cut out the overall best talent from episodes 4-6 was a risky move. I hope JJ has a plan that will raise Hamill's performance in episode 8. I'm confident to see what will happen.

In conclusion, I enjoyed the movie a great bit. The new characters were stunning and the film was action-packed, which is what I loved about the previous Star Wars films and still do.

Looking forward to 2017.

[TheAverageFan]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Spoiler Alert!

Kylo Ren- nicely done overall, kinda felt rushed. I don't mind the conflicted angle that people are calling emo- not all villains are 100% evil, nor are they 100% keeping it together. I'm intrigued.
This is a dumb nitpick, but I'd really rather they'd left him killing Han until later in the trilogy- however that's a different problem. He started out quite menacing, and I'm sure we'll get more examples of his Force abilities later in the trilogy, but by the end he didn't have me quaking in my boots the way Vader did anytime he came onscreen in the original trilogy.

Han's death- I just wish they'd left it until later. Yes, they had to kill off one of the old cast, yes Han was the obvious choice. But the filmmakers just canned the bulk of the acting talent they had leftover from the original trilogy. I hope Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher will be able to pick up the slack.

I agree. Having seen the movie twice now, I feel a little better about Kylo but still not convinced. I also wish they had saved his confrontation with Han until later in the saga, because he could have been developed more by then and because Han was great and I would've liked more of him.

Another nitpick I forgot about was Leia. Why isn't she a Jedi--it's been 30 years since RotJ and she seemingly hasn't explored that at all. Luke is still the last Jedi after all this time. Seems weird to me, but again we still have at least two more movies to explore this further.

~TAF

P.S. An odd note I picked up upon a second viewing: at the end of the movie, Rey still has that metal stick thing with her. She barely used it and now has a blaster and a lightsaber--what's she planning on using that thing for?

[Ninja Status]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

I agree. Having seen the movie twice now, I feel a little better about Kylo but still not convinced. I also wish they had saved his confrontation with Han until later in the saga, because he could have been developed more by then and because Han was great and I would've liked more of him.

Another nitpick I forgot about was Leia. Why isn't she a Jedi--it's been 30 years since RotJ and she seemingly hasn't explored that at all. Luke is still the last Jedi after all this time. Seems weird to me, but again we still have at least two more movies to explore this further.

~TAF

P.S. An odd note I picked up upon a second viewing: at the end of the movie, Rey still has that metal stick thing with her. She barely used it and now has a blaster and a lightsaber--what's she planning on using that thing for?

There's a lot left we have yet to know, a lot of exposition we could've had that would iron out a lot of things.

Spoiler Alert!

I'm still confused as to what happened to the rest of the Jedi that Luke trained. Did Kylo kill them all? Did they just go into hiding...? I feel like if they were involved it would've made it a more interesting movie.

[TheAverageFan]

Originally Posted by Ninja Status

Spoiler Alert!

I'm still confused as to what happened to the rest of the Jedi that Luke trained. Did Kylo kill them all? Did they just go into hiding...? I feel like if they were involved it would've made it a more interesting movie.

Kylo assumedly killed them all, probably with the assistance of the Knights of Ren, another extremely mysterious group. I'm not sure if they're all force sensitive as well.

~TAF

[Tai-Pan]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

Kylo assumedly killed them all, probably with the assistance of the Knights of Ren, another extremely mysterious group. I'm not sure if they're all force sensitive as well.

~TAF

It would be an interesting twist if the Knights of Ren are Kylo's band of turncoat Jedi that he led to the dark side, former students of Luke.



Did anyone else think that the revelation between Han and Kylo could have been better? I think if the scene with Snoke had been put off until the last 40 minutes or so, it would have allowed the viewer to possibly suspect it. The way it was, it came as a surprise, but not in a surprising way, just more of a side element in the conversation.

[Aldin]

It's a spoiler thread. I'm not putting spoiler tags in a spoiler thread, though I respect the kind intentions of those who do.

Given all of the expectations this movie had to live up to, the way it had to serve international audiences from 5 years old to 105 years old, I can't imagine how it could have been better. All of us have our own relationship with these movies and the new one had to advance all of those while simultaneously building new relationships with kids that weren't around last time.

Did we need another massively monstrous weapon annihilating worlds and destroyed by the courageous? Absolutely! What fun for existing fans, how cool and amazing for new ones! This seems to be the biggest complaint I see over and over again - "another Death Star", "shot for shot remake". I call BS. It had a lot of call backs to the original, tons of fan service - but - it also re-spun the magic for a new generation.

Because of all the self-references, it's easy to make the claim of a remake. But you have to really twist what's going on here to make it happen. The central question of TFA is "where is Luke Skywalker and how did this all go so wrong"? We're seeing the failed aftermath of victory. The setup in this film is bittersweet.

Where were the themes of betrayal in ANH? It runs strongly through TFA with Kylo Ren first betraying Luke and later his father, while accusing Finn of betraying the Imperial Remnant. What a powerful moment as he projects his own anguish on Finn. And did Luke betray the fledgling Republic? He certainly hasn't been there for them.

Are there echoes of Luke's training in what happens with Rey? Not really. Luke's a farmboy. Tough enough and a decent pilot, but not even remotely self-sufficient. Rey not only has demonstrated her ability to get by on her own, but regularly shows she can come up with her own plans and carry them through. Luke's struggles with the Force in ESB? Rey is simply told that the Force is real and upon discovering she can use it has the faith, the belief, that she can use it effectively. No one needed to teach her what wasn't impossible.

I could, and perhaps later in this thread will, keep going with other things that I thought were extremely well done (Luke and Rey at the end? Perfection). But I think I'll let this stand as an opening remark on what I thought of the film.

~Aldin, 9.5/10