The Book of Cathar Spearmen

[Not User Name]

I recently bought 4 squads of them and I feel that their braced spear should have a size limit for some reason. I just house ruled it and went from their. Other than that I love these guys.

[dok]

Well, braced spears historically have been used quite a lot against cavalry (watch Braveheart sometime ). But if a size restriction works better on your gaming table, then go for it.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by TREX

I play these guys with tenth regiment, and usually do really well. the Combination of impaling melee enemies, with a wait then fire firing squad, usually perched on a height bonus is always devastating to most. To utilize the low move value, I bring the enemy in with the Regiment. I liked the cathar spearmen so much, i got carried away and bought a lot of like 40 figures. ( I wasn't thinking too clearly, obviously)online shopping+alcohol=excessive amounts of miniatures. At my place we don't play high point value games where i can field 10 squads of spearmen, for shame.

Play a 1000 point game.

Mega hordes, Marvel, and lots of trashtalking, my kinda party!

[Not User Name]

Originally Posted by dok

Well, braced spears historically have been used quite a lot against cavalry (watch Braveheart sometime ). But if a size restriction works better on your gaming table, then go for it.

I will have to, I think maybe a huge restriction from now on so that Templars and others are still affected.

[OEAO]

Alright, I'm back to these guys.

I finally bought them so I could look at their sculpts, and I have a big problem: HOW do they have reach? I submit Exhibit A:



As you can see, it falls a good hex short. Now view Exhibit B:



Even if you extend the spear to its full length, holding the spear at its base, it barely enters the second hex.

Now this is where the problem lies from just a practical perspective. The Cathar should not get more dice for attacking from range two, because of reality. If any of you have ever played lacrosse, you know that you have much less control when you hold the stick from the bottom. The same would apply here, the Cathar wouldn't be more powerful from two away, they'd be more powerful from adjacent. Also, it would be easier to dodge just that little tip that barely reaches.

Another question is, IF (and as we already saw, this isn't true) they were more powerful from two away, wouldn't they get Braced Spear from two away, not adjacent? I think this was conveniently overlooked for simplicity and gameplay.

The answer? Impale is a terrible power for theme. It should be changed to read:

"When attacking an adjacent figure, a Cathar Spearman receives an additional attack die."

Not only will this fix the glaring practical problem, but it will also prevent certain matchup from being as un-fun and imbalanced as they are. Now, the Cathar would have to engage melee to be as strong as possible. It is a very soft nerf to Braced Spear without changing that power. Also, it opens up strategic decisions when using Cathar that just weren't there before: do you attack with lesser power to keep Braced Spear relevant, or do you attack with more power and forego the defensive power?

Also note that this doesn't make Reach irrelevant, the Hydra uses Reach and is a great figure. It is obvious that they don't need extra dice to make it powerful.

The big thing is to fix the discrepancy between Braced Spear and Impale. Both are in reference to the same part of the spear which only has a one-hex reach, yet Braced Spear refers to adjacent and Impale affects non-adjacent.

I ask that this is not immediately thrown out because of who I am, however, I sadly believe it will.

If you made it this far, thank you.

[Lazy Orang]

Umm... you do realise that if these guys were real, they'd be able to extend their arms, right? So, when their spear is braced to their side to hit a charging enemy, it'd only extend into the next hex - Braced Spear theme win. When they thrust their spear to strike and thus extend their arm a bit, it will reach the hex beyond that by a good margin - Reach theme win. And finally, when an opponent is in the next hex, they'll be behind the point of the spear when you've got it extended in front of you, making it infinitely easier to hit a guy further away with something meaningful than someone who's already come well within the spear's range - Impale theme win, once again. You... don't seem to understand how spears or arms work.

[OEAO]

I present to you, Exhibit C:



Yes, broke a Spearman for this picture. But as you can see, even with arm extended and a spear, it doesn't reach the second hex all too well... Once again, unless he holds it by the very very bottom, in which case, the spear would be ineffective. To be effective, one hand needs to be up a bit more towards the middle for balance purposes. I'm sorry, but the spears are just too short. I'm not saying that you're theory is wrong, it's quite right, but it simply doesn't work with the given figures.

[dok]

Same applies for the Hydra - a first look at its sculpt certainly doesn't suggest more reach than many figures that don't have reach. And also, Jotun and Nilfheim don't have reach despite being very clearly the lankiest sculpts in the game.

Game, not simulation. This exact point was discussed when they were being designed.

FWIW, Spearmen have been getting crushed online lately, and usually by bonding melee armies.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by dok

Same applies for the Hydra - a first look at its sculpt certainly doesn't suggest more reach than many figures that don't have reach. And also, Jotun and Nilfheim don't have reach despite being very clearly the lankiest sculpts in the game.

Game, not simulation. This exact point was discussed when they were being designed.

FWIW, Spearmen have been getting crushed online lately, and usually by bonding melee armies.

I don't know- I actually can see the Hydra with Reach, if you move it forward so it's not set back on it's base...

But that's beside the point. What is online using, a hex or figure limit? Cuz the Cathar are much better when they have less figures to face.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

I present to you, Exhibit C:



Yes, broke a Spearman for this picture. But as you can see, even with arm extended and a spear, it doesn't reach the second hex all too well... Once again, unless he holds it by the very very bottom, in which case, the spear would be ineffective. To be effective, one hand needs to be up a bit more towards the middle for balance purposes. I'm sorry, but the spears are just too short. I'm not saying that you're theory is wrong, it's quite right, but it simply doesn't work with the given figures.

At this point, it's a case of game abstraction. It's a cool, thematic idea, and these figures are decent to do it for. Just imagine the spears are a little longer - as I've said before, a game where a samurai loosing two arrows does exactly the same as a robot death machine firing two rockets doesn't need to be bogged down by too much realism.

~ Lazy Orang, looking forward to getting these guys as a present at the holidays. Also appreciating C3V doing their research to get a rather obscure historical reference into the game - I didn't even know the Cathars or Count Raymond existed until they were released, and I have an interest in history.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

At this point, it's a case of game abstraction. It's a cool, thematic idea, and these figures are decent to do it for. Just imagine the spears are a little longer - as I've said before, a game where a samurai loosing two arrows does exactly the same as a robot death machine firing two rockets doesn't need to be bogged down by too much realism.

~ Lazy Orang, looking forward to getting these guys as a present at the holidays. Also appreciating C3V doing their research to get a rather obscure historical reference into the game - I didn't even know the Cathars or Count Raymond existed until they were released, and I have an interest in history.

Just one thing- I find it very believable that Kaemon and Q10 can do the same damage. Sure, rockets are powerful, but arrows are piercing if accurate.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by dok

Game, not simulation.

Yes.

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

I think this was conveniently overlooked for simplicity and gameplay.

Also yes. When designing Heroscape units, simplicity and gameplay are fairly important factors. YMMV, of course.