Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by quozl

As playtesting is the best criteria for points cost, shouldn't the points cost be irrelevant for deciding to review? Only after lots of playtesting can a point cost be accurately determined.

One of the 5 criteria list points as being right in order to be reviewed so the answer to your question is no.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by robbdaman

One of the 5 criteria list points as being right in order to be reviewed so the answer to your question is no.

Yes, that is precisely what I'm questioning.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by quozl

As playtesting is the best criteria for points cost, shouldn't the points cost be irrelevant for deciding to review? Only after lots of playtesting can a point cost be accurately determined.

Speaking for myself, if the points are close then I'll vote to review it, as I did with Gorvath. If I don't think it's possible the unit will balance at the designated point cost, as with Raven's Claw, then I'll vote no to review. When I'm torn between the two, as with dok's Zombie Hulk, I'll procrastinate.

Not "irrelevant," but also not the first thing I look for. Fair question, quozl, thank you for asking for clarification on that point.

[1Mmirg]

I'm with DS on this one. I only vote no if I feel the point cost is simply not in the ballpark.

If it seems close, then I'll test. If I saw a figure that more or less mirrored Cyprien and cost 20 or 250 points, I would simply say no.

Using analogies to current units, TKN, Microcorp, Venom, Spidey, etc., I feel comfortable determining now that this unit just doesn't quite work at it's points.

Playtesting is time-consuming and I reserve it for units that I think have a reasonable chance of successfully joining the SoV.

[Kaiyu]

I'm guessing the 110 pts was intentional:

Mohican River Tribe x2-- 140
Brave Arrow -- 190
Raven's Claw -- 300

So I don't think raising the cost is the best solution. Added more restrictions to Mystic Axe and/or Death's Alley would probably be the better choice from what I can see...

Maybe... "If Raven's Claw's Mystic Axe Special Attack destroys a non-adjacent figure..."

This also leaves room open for making a melee mirror Tribesman that would be restricted to destroying adjacent only figures.

[Killometer]

My computer's on the fritz (I'm posting this from KMart), so the op won't be updated until I get it back from the shop.

I'm still pondering the Zombie Hulk, and I haven't had a chance to look over Raven's Claw yet.

Sorry about the delay, but I'll update as soon as I can.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don't want to discourage the workshopping of customs. Quite the contrary, I hope (call me a dreamer) to see customs makers inspired to workshop *because* of this project. Workshop meaning, work together in groups to criticize, edit, and finish each others' projects, as Krysto began doing.

But this thread is where they should be coming after they've been workshopped, edited & priced correctly *already*. My comments about pricing aren't really intended to recommend specific changes to the custom in question, it's just a reason I'm giving for my decision.

edit:
Ok, my research is finished. I'll the review for the Zombie Hulk. I'm not embarrassed to say it'll be awhile before the playtesting is done with that feller, though. There's a lot going on there.

[ZBeeblebrox]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

Yup, you're right kaiyu.

I thought of those examples *shudder* but I wanted to give an example that was more part of the peak of the metagame to show the issue more starkly. Being able to destroy units that are often considered lower tier is one thing, being able to destroy units that are fairly well regarded, that's something more.

Sure, this guy has to have some luck to really lay waste, but with 3 dice he could get on a roll and even make Heavies and Stingers and others fall awfully rapidly.

Anyhow, I do like the idea, but the unit just doesn't seem quite balanced yet.

Originally Posted by DaddyScaper

Raven's Claw's mechanics are very interesting. I can see the comparison to Tor Kul Na, though RC is not limited (as much) by the placement of opposing figs as Tor Kul Na is. He also could *really* go on a tear through (a) low defense squads *or* (b) units that rely on special defenses (Krav, WoA, Nakitas, Mezzos) for survival.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that he could take down all or most of his point's worth of opposition on a single OM *and* simultaneously position himself in his opponent's start zone or, alternatively, some distance away from his opponent's remaining units with unrevealed OMs. Plus when he flames out he does not really cost an OM, because the OMs were on the Mohicans anyway, and now Brave Arrow can move instead.

I like the d20 survival power for this type of unit.

He has, as Wriggz said, some Brunak with Blood Frenzy, but also some Wolf of Badru with the moving attack, some Isamu with the vanish and move, some Tor Kul Na with the ability to kill as he moves. Like the best of Krysto's nominations, several great ideas in there but the final product does not appear to be balanced at the given point cost.

I like the mechanics and I think it would have been elegant to have 110 point heroes for the Mohicans and the Gladiators under review at the same time, but I'm going to vote no to Raven's Claw.

Sorry I have to agree with my colleagues about Raven Claw. That special is awesome thematically, but too powerful as written for 110 points. They hit the nail on the head with their assessment and I also Vote NO for Raven Claw.

[wriggz]

Thanks for the input guys, I did a fair amount of playing around with the points before I landed on something that felt right. Granted I didn't run him much against vipers, or a kato army, but against the 10th he actually falls rather flat.

I never really got more than 50% his points out of the special attack in a single turn and when going against commons his 4 life and 3 defence lead to a quick kill. The problem is attacking figures with hight. Either you go for the equal or lower ground (usually 2 or 3 defence) or try to lock hight advantage the next round but have to face great defence.

As for the move, It actually is often a disadvantage since when your attack fails you end up surrounded by commons that will swarm his weak "lifense" or you are attacking heroes which is unlike to result in a kill. Thanks for the notes, but for the games I play the points feel right for how productive he is in reality.

[nyys]

I have a feeling I'm going to do a head slap after asking this but some of the wording on the Zombie Hulk is confusing me.


Zombie Rises Again
"...remove all markers other than order markers on that card."

Whose card? The new Zombie Hulk? I supposed I can see an OM played on a dead ZH in anticipation of ZRA, but why would there be other markers to remove?


Paralyzing Fear
"Figures attacked by any undead subtract one from their defense dice for every Zombie Hulk they are engaged to."

Is this basically limiting the restricted defense dice if attacked by undead only? If a figure is adjacent to a ZH, and a non-undead attacks them the defense is not reduced correct? Only if another undead, like a Shade, attacks a fig who is adjacent to a ZH reduces defense dice?

Should 'engaged' be adjacent?

[dok]

Originally Posted by nyys

I have a feeling I'm going to do a head slap after asking this but some of the wording on the Zombie Hunk is confusing me.


Zombie Rises Again
"...remove all markers other than order markers on that card."

Whose card? The new Zombie Hulk? I supposed I can see an OM played on a dead ZH in anticipation of ZRA, but why would there be other markers to remove?

Wound markers from when that Zombie was last on the board, or a lycanthropy marker. Thanos has similar language in rejected by death:

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by nyys

Paralyzing Fear
"Figures attacked by any undead subtract one from their defense dice for every Zombie Hulk they are engaged to."

Is this basically limiting the restricted defense dice if attacked by undead only? If a figure is adjacent to a ZH, and a non-undead attacks them the defense is not reduced correct? Only if another undead, like a Shade, attacks a fig who is adjacent to a ZH reduces defense dice?

Correct. Zombie Hulks can't drop the defense of a figure attacked by Major Q9.

Originally Posted by nyys

Should 'engaged' be adjacent?

Only if we want it to affect friendly figures...

[nyys]

Thanks dok. On the first question I claim ignorance since I never use the Marvel units (makes sense now). On the second one.

I like this guy. Little concerned about it only being 60 points, but I want to give it a whirl.

YES to review the Zombie Hulk.