Delta: latest updates and discussion

[caps]

After posting it also occurred to me that the Delta Cheese meta still seemed pretty similar to what we typically see. There weren't a lot of non traditional competitive armies in the mix, so it's not surprising that the ones that ended up in the finals were also pretty familiar.

[Leaf_It]

I've been discussing this a lot in the Utah Monthly Tournament Discord, and @BiggaBullfrog suggested that I comment in here about it.

Obsidian Guards 75 -> 60
Why are the Obsidian Guards still so expensive? To compare to another terrain themed squad, the Dzu-Tah are better, and more consistent, and they are only 60. I don't see how they could be reasonably priced any higher than the Dzu-Teh. I've not seen anyone run them recently, and I've tried fitting them into armies, but even on purely lava maps, there's just better options for 75 points. Do we really think they are equivalent to Varkaanan Blade Dancers, Horned Skull Brutes, and Marro Stingers? How about the 65 point Roman Legionaries? Are they really better than them? Yeah they have better raw stats than Romans, but Romans have so much synergy, and an extra figure per squad to make up for that.

[caps]

Manauvi and Arktos are both 100 points. It seems to me that Manauvi is still just a little overpriced (I don't think he's better than Crixus) and Arktos is possibly still a. Little underpriced. Either way it seems wrong that they have the same cost. It also seems wrong that Bahadur is still more expensive than Arktos.

[caps]

I played Denrick with the knights recently. It still feels like there's rarely a reason to take him over most of the other champion options and he seems worse than Martial La Hire (who is in the ballpark of 50 points). Does Denrick become desirable for the Knights or Macdirks at 75 points? 65?

[dok]

We’re pleased to announce the November update to the Delta Pricing system. There are 31 cards with price adjustments, plus we’ve added Delta prices for all the Marvel heroes.

You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and I imagine the builder on heroscape.org will be updated within a few days.

Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:

Good stuff is still really good, continued

Spoiler Alert!

Raelin 120->135
Nilfheim 220->230
Quahon 215->225

Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.

The Raelin bump hurts Nilf a good bit, but the whole package costing 25 more feels reasonable, honestly. With greenscales going down in the last update, and deservedly so, the best uniques need to bear more of the cost. The same goes for Quahon - I have a hard time justifying more than a 5 point gap between the best dragons, even with spiders nerfed in Delta VC.

The oops files, and/or faction reapportionments

Spoiler Alert!

Deathcommander Mark 3 140->120
Deathwalker 8000 120 -> 115
Deathwalker 9000 125 -> 120 (110 Delta Classic)

Arktos 100 -> 110
Bahadur 125 -> 110
Manauvi 100 -> 90

Empress Kiova 70 -> 75
Einar Imperium 110 -> 105

Only a few cards (Deathcommander, Kiova, and Bahadur) are actually bouncing back towards their classic price, but in each case they are part of a larger reassessment of the faction. Kiova is taking a bit more of the price from the now-cheaper Imperium. Arktos has been the value hero pick for the Varks for a while, so we’re adjusting based on that. The Deathborg faction has remained weak in Delta, so we’re giving a discount, and that discount gets even steeper for 9k in classic, where his range boost is much less significant.

Make Mine Marvel!

Spoiler Alert!

Silver Surfer 320 -> 370
Captain America 220 -> 250
Thanos 360 -> 390
Doctor Doom 245 -> 210
Red Skull 190 -> 175

The other 5 Marvel heroes enter Delta at their standard prices.

Metagame Beneficiaries

Spoiler Alert!

Azazel the Kyrie Warrior 150 -> 175
Warriors of Ashra 55 -> 60

Cheaper Death Knights and a generally more leveled-out meta made Azazel too good of a value engine - he almost always came back once and that’s all it takes for him to earn his points. Warriors of Ashra benefit from less prevalent special attacks and a more melee-friendly meta.

Common Discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Minions of Utgar 110 -> 105
Protectors of Ullar 105 -> 95
Sentinels of Jandar 110 -> 105

Nottingham Brigand 35 -> 25
Obsidian Guards 75 -> 65
Swog Rider 25 -> 20

The Kyrie squads (including the previously mentioned Einar Imperium) all take a small discount. Nottingham Brigands take a small discount due to underperforming. Obsidian Guards are still priced for their performance on VW maps but at 65 they are still probably conservatively priced. Swong Riders have been a consistent underperformer for a long time on modern maps and are probably overdue for a discount.

Unique discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Agent Skahen 115 -> 100
Syvarris 105 -> 100
Nakita Agents 110 -> 105

Elite Onyx Vipers 80 -> 70
Kozuke Samurai 90 -> 85
Ninjas of the Northern Wind 100 -> 100 (70 in Delta Classic)

Migol Ironwill 100 -> 95
Parmenio 75 -> 65

Garrett Burns 60 -> 55
Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM) 160 -> 155
Sharwin Wildborn 90 -> 80
Shurrak 160 -> 145
Siege 110 -> 100
Sir Dupuis 125 -> 95
Sonlen 150 -> 140
Torin 100 -> 95

Skahen, Syvarris, and Nakitas all take a slight discount to put their prices more in line with the Krav/Airborne/Marro Warriors. The three most underperforming unique melee squads all take a price cut, with the NotNW’s cut only applying in classic when Kantono isn’t around. Parmenio is a fair bit worse in Delta where there’s no underpriced Raelin to discipline, and Migol suffers by comparison to the other Dwarf heroes. The rest are a series of smaller discounts (well, other than Dupuis’s) for some relatively weak standalone heroes.

---

Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this

[caps]

I am stumped that the Deepwyrm Drow remain at 70 points.

[Grey Waves]

Good changes! There's one in particular that I'm curious about though.

Originally Posted by dok

Azazel the Kyrie Warrior 150 -> 175

Could you provide a bit more explanation regarding this one? I am aware that death knights with Azazel won Season 48. However, I have no idea how Azazel actually performed in practice because @Dachshund never wrote a single battle report for any of his games. (Despite emerging as the champion). Was Azazel's performance really that strong to justify a 25 point increase?

Also, the last line of your post appears to be cut off; it just reads "Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this".

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Grey Waves

There's one in particular that I'm curious about though.

Could you provide a bit more explanation regarding this one? I am aware that death knights with Azazel won Season 48. However, I have no idea how Azazel actually performed in practice because @Dachshund never wrote a single battle report for any of his games. (Despite emerging as the champion). Was Azazel's performance really that strong to justify a 25 point increase?

I'd probably attribute 15 points of the increase to missing value at the previous point total & 10 points of the increase to the 'bad metagame' figure tax (a la Deadeye Dan). Basically some uber-high variance figures have gotten hit with that tax because them being 'equally viable' isn't super-great for the meta.

Thanos' initial rating is also somewhat reflective of that tax, fyi.

[Knox]

Love the updated changes. Every Delta update makes my day!

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by caps

I am stumped that the Deepwyrm Drow remain at 70 points.

*65
Should probably be like 55 though. They're only okay vs all hero armies, and pretty bad vs squads.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

*65
Should probably be like 55 though. They're only okay vs all hero armies, and pretty bad vs squads.

Interesting. They were 70 before the update. Dok must have forgot to call out that change. I could see them as low as 45 or 50. But 55 seems like it would be an improvement.

[Muskie]

are these changes reflected in the army builder software? Thanks for all of this!

yep, they are! thanks!