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#277
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Without going through the math myself, if Lefty's stats are correct, those numbers would not be worth keeping the aura simply because its nigh useless in the master set, and its not a game changing power (like Mindshackle). 14.8% to do anything against the majority of the master set (since 3 will presumably be the most common defense number), is just too low.
Overshadowing Taelord is an issue, but unfornately he's largely overshadowed... By just drafting another squad or a big hero. My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#278
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I'd be interested to see how
@lefton4ya
arrived at his stats. I used the website linked to previously, but I also double checked my results with a probability table that
@superfrog
shared with me, which confirmed that with 3 defense there is a 25% chance of rolling at least 2 shields, and with 4 defense there is a 40% chance of rolling at least 2 shields.
Here's the table that @superfrog shared with me: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2121033307 |
#279
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
My fault on stats, was looking at probability calculator I found online but think I was using it wrong. Here is the stats on OP power:
So Necroblade's suggestion is better than OP in all scenarios besides 7+ defense. Compared to Gothlog, which reduces Dice by 1 it reduces average Shield rolled by 33%, so Necroblade's suggestion is twice as effective (if I grasp combined probabilities correctly). Bottom line is I think the OP power is slightly weak but you have convinced me Necroblade's suggestion as too strong. I am wiling to stick with OP power as I think it will make a strategy is to combine Velkhor with high attackers, or play to counter high defense units (Minions, Deathwalkers, Q Bros, Counterstrikes). C3V/SoV cards @ 3/page PDF / LeftOn4ya's Customs (including Jurassic World) / Competitive Unit Alters / New? Start Here! Unit Debates REVIVED - #76 Tandros Kreel vs Torin "Today is a good day to die... but the day is not yet over"
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#280
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Cool. So how much of a price decrease are we looking for? I'll re-suggest 110. The aura isn't terribly strong, but it comes with a potent after-death debuff.
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#281
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
It's been a little while since I've tested him, but 110 sounds to me like a good place to start. I'd also be okay with nerfing his vulnerability spirit to just -1D, or making it do the same thing as Frailty Aura. Another potential change I'd consider would be extending the range of Frailty Aura to 6.
As we continue testing, there were a couple other things that are probably worth keeping in mind. First, we should be mindful of the synergy with the Acolytes of Vorganund. I've never played with or against them, but I could see Velkhor ending up as an important piece of an Acolyte/Demon army, which isn't a bad thing necessarily but something we need to consider when thinking about balance. Secondly, since the Master Set is all unique figures, his Vulnerability Spirit is going to be significantly more effective in the MS than it will be generally, which could help to balance things out in the MS meta since he won't have access to bonding. |
#282
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
For rolling two shields on 3 defense dice, the probability is (1/3)*(1/3)*(2/3)*3=22% (because there are three different permutations for exactly two defense dice: shield-shield-not, not-shield-shield, and shield-not-shield, each of which has this probability of occurring). Then, the odds of rolling 3 shields is just (1/3)^3=3.7%. Adding that to the probability of rolling 2 shields gets us ~25%, the probability of rolling two or more shields with 3 defense. Following the same logic with 4 dice yields ~40% to roll either 2, 3, or 4 shields.
I think that a decrease to 110 points sounds like it would be a good change here. It's also worth considering adding a high-defense character or two to the set to give him a better chance to shine within just AotV (and we should be aiming for a good defensive spread anyway). Increasing the aura to 6 spaces gives me a bit of pause. It would certainly be appreciated by the Wolves of Badru and make him easier to position (and more annoying for the enemy, which makes them want to kill him earlier), though that also gives him much more utility in an Acolytes build since they don't have to spend turns bonding with him. I think that it's worth testing if the aura continues to underwhelm at a lower cost. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#283
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Maybe make the Aura 5 spaces? No other figure has 5 space aura so is another thing that makes him different, plus 5 aura covers 50% more hexes than 4, but 6 range covers twice as much as 4, at least according to stats on Threatened Hexes -an example of range efficiency
Code:
. . . . . ..New Hexes .. . . Total Hexes Range . . . in Range . . . . in Range . 1 . . .. . . 6 . . . . . . .. 6 . 2 . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . 18 . 3 . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . 36 . 4 . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . 60 . 5 . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . 90 . 6 . . . . . 36 . . . . . .. 126 . 7 . . . . . 42 . . . . . .. 168 As far as VULNERABILITY SPIRIT, as it stands it reduces by 66% so is better than all but 7+ defense figures than a comparable spirit based on the aura: Quote:
C3V/SoV cards @ 3/page PDF / LeftOn4ya's Customs (including Jurassic World) / Competitive Unit Alters / New? Start Here! Unit Debates REVIVED - #76 Tandros Kreel vs Torin "Today is a good day to die... but the day is not yet over"
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#284
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Quote:
But yeah, I'm fine with a larger aura. Debuffs auras are more difficult to use than buffs. |
#286
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
I like how re-rolling a die was "my" version of the power, when it was just an off-the-cuff idea during a post-game discussion. If the math checks out in favor of the current version, that's great. Being more (or only) effective against high defense units is probably part of the problem; with average attacks of 3 and defenses of 4, it'll only matter maybe 1 in 5 attacks (50% of 2+ skulls, 41% of 2+ shields, but rolling 3-4 shields against 2 skulls means still no effect). If you're making 3 attacks per turn (against figures in the aura) that's one, maybe two shields removed per round. That's not nothing, but it's also not much; if you roll 3 skulls against a squad figure that rolls 2 shields, it was dead anyway. So the other part of the problem is even in cases where it technically removes a shield, it still effectively does nothing. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see a lot of testing data on exactly how many times the aura actually mattered before I was satisfied. Balance-wise it might not break the game, but it also has to at least be fun to be worthwhile.
On other notes, I agree 110 seems reasonable as-is. Quote:
Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#287
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
FWIW I like that version of vulnerability spirit NB just quoted.
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#288
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Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti
Map: Fossil
Army 1: Velkhor, Badru x2, Greyspears, Arktos, Isamu (515) Army 2: 120 Crypt Guardian x2 140 Sudema 50 Drow Chainfighter x2 Tomb Skeleton Archers x4, 90 Warden 816 Which units survived? Isamu This game I charged straight into the frey with Arktos and my greyspears, who were able to deal three wounds to Sudema, kill a bunch of tomb skeleton archers, and hurt the crypt guardians before they all went down. After that, Velkhor and the wolves closed in to finish off Sudema and the rest of the archers while dealing slow but steady damage to the guardians. It looked like I would take the game easily, until an attack from height against Velkhor dealt 4 wounds in a single attack. In the following rounds, he killed off my wolves while I slowly whittled away at the crypt guardians life. Eventually it came down to just isamu vs Warden 816 with the velkhor aura and one chainfighter. Isamu was able to survive a few early attacks and grab wannok, which made my opponent choose to sacrifice Warden. Isamu and the chainfighter spent a few turns trading attacks, before the ninja was finally able to land the killing blow. How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play? His normal attack dealt 2 wounds on crypt guardian, 1 wound on archer His aura caused crypt guardians to take 3 wounds that would otherwise have been blocked, and one wound on a chain guardian that would otherwise have been blocked. His spirit was placed on Warden, which made my opponent choose to lose warden to wannok instead of his last chainfighter when it came down to them vs Isamu. If Warden had been at full strength, my opponent probably would have chosen to lose the chainfighter, which meant that Warden probably could have held wannok against Isamu. Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)? Velkhor actually felt very useful this game, as his aura was instrumental in dealing damage to the crypt guardians, and allowed me to more confidently use pounce against the tomb skeletons and sudema. While he dealt more damage than usual, he’s still definitely not worth 145 points. However, I also don’t think a total rework of his powers is necessary either. Simply lowering his point value, plus a couple small tweaks to his powers should be enough to put him in a healthier place, in my opinion. If there were to be changes to his design, I would recommend either giving him Stealth Flying, or extending the range of his aura to 5 or 6 spaces. Stealth Flying would be my preferred direction, as this would let him be more aggressive in positioning his debuff aura, knowing that he can easily escape if he gets too surrounded.
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